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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.
    I would change "I just don't like it" to something stronger

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    so the Colorado Rockies are clearly the best hitters in baseball because of gaudy stats created by a huge park illusion?

    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    and here I thought the home games count too...

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Is it a coincidence, two lefty's for example, Yaz and Fred Lynn, look like two different players, home and away splits.
    Fenway for the most part of it's history, bottom line, hitters heaven.
    Some RH Bosox hitters.
    Cronin----------H .327----A .276
    D. Dimaggio-----H .323---A .273
    Vern Stephens--H .327---A .253
    Bobby Doerr----H .315---A .261
    Hugh gaps to put it mildly.
    All but one has a slugging percentage, 100+ points higher at home.

    Pure nonsense when we have to looks at posts trying downplay the hugh advantage by pointing out how the rest of the league bats when playing there, so that negates the player home field advantage. Again nonsense, not looking at OPS+ for the player and the league.
    The issue is, the only one that counts is what if that player was not playing 88 or more game at home every season, what would his composite career stats look like. Great park to hit in, small foul territory and for years one of the shortest backstop distances, home plate to seating behind home plate.
    Some older parks, home to backstop..Fenway 54--- Shibe 64--- Yankee Stadium 75--- Forbes 70+-- Comiskey 86-----Sportsmans 67 feet.
    Only in recent years are parks in Fenway's neighborhood. Hitters love Fenway, favorable hitting conditions can not be ignored or downplayed
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-06-2013, 08:06 AM.

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by The Commissioner View Post
    That's not entirely fair to Klein. Yes, no one can deny he was helped immensely by the Baker Bowl. Yet we don't know (we can run 20 different simulations to guess), but we can't know what he would have achieved had he played more than 11 games a year in any other ballpark? Also, I'd be interested in knowing how many of his hits bore a direct correlation to the dimensions of the ballpark? Would his homeruns all have been mere long outs in other stadiums or would they have cleared the wall there as well? Were most of his singles directly aided by the ballpark or was it a non-factor? (I'm not being facetious. I am honestly asking because I don't know).

    Also, let's not forget Klein could also steal bases and was by no means a "poor" defensive corner outfielder. Yes, he led the league in errors four times, but he also mastered that wall in RF of the Baker Bowl. In some ways, he was to RF there, what Yaz was to RF in Fenway.
    Of course there is no way to know for sure, but it would be silly to think that it didn't have some effect. And for a borderline case, it wouldn't take much. You, yourself admit that he was "helped immensely." That is no less extreme than what I said. I never claimed he was a bad player or that all of his success was due the park.

    Advanced statistics agree that he was a bad fielder beyond his errors. Hard to say how much the park contributed, like you said.

    Leave a comment:


  • lizmcl
    replied
    As one who clearly remembers the Kasko-Johnson Era Red Sox, the perceptions of Yaz shifted widely over that period. The team was riddled by dissension in 1971, and many in the press fingered Yastrzemski and his close friend Reggie Smith as the ringleaders: Billy Conigliaro accused them of conspiring to get his brother traded the previous fall, and these charges ripped the team apart in mid-season. This brought back all the "Yaz got Pesky fired, Yaz got Harrelson traded" stories of previous years. Yaz had a poor year in 1972, as well, and was ripped by rookie Carlton Fisk for not providing clubhouse leadership -- whichdidn't help his image with the fans. He was also dealing with injuries during this period, which kept his performance below the levels we'd gotten used to in 1967-70. There was a lot of talk that he should be traded while he still had value.

    It wasn't until the 1975 playoffs that people really began to respect Yaz again -- he singlehandedly destroyed Oakland in that series, or at least that was how it looked to us at the time, and from then to the end of his career we respected him as a gutsy veteran who we were lucky to have on the team. He wasn't flashy like Lynn or Rice or Tiant, but after 1975 we thought of him as the heart of the club.

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  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    and here I thought the home games count too...

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Yaz credited Hungarian born trainer Gene Berde for helping him get into great shape for the 1967 season. Ted Williams also had suggested Yaz close his stance, while Bobby Doerr advised him to raise his arms higher. One source mentions that Yaz never duplicated Berde's same off-season training habits in later years as they were too difficult.

    Had he produced several more seasons like 1967 then I think we would be debating who was the better player - Yaz or Ted.

    Anyone know what Yaz's feelings are about electing some of the PED users to the Hall of Fame?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.
    Willshad, are the same posters doing the accusing and the excusing? When you use the passive voice or talk about what "people" or "they" are saying, it is very hard for me to figure out who you have in mind, so it's a challenge for me to understand or respond.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Commissioner
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    When you are a poor defensive CO with only 6 seasons over 130 games played, and whose only calling card is offense (in an extreme offensive ballpark), the park issue is a much bigger deal in handling his perception vs. reality.
    That's not entirely fair to Klein. Yes, no one can deny he was helped immensely by the Baker Bowl. Yet we don't know (we can run 20 different simulations to guess), but we can't know what he would have achieved had he played more than 11 games a year in any other ballpark? Also, I'd be interested in knowing how many of his hits bore a direct correlation to the dimensions of the ballpark? Would his homeruns all have been mere long outs in other stadiums or would they have cleared the wall there as well? Were most of his singles directly aided by the ballpark or was it a non-factor? (I'm not being facetious. I am honestly asking because I don't know).

    Also, let's not forget Klein could also steal bases and was by no means a "poor" defensive corner outfielder. Yes, he led the league in errors four times, but he also mastered that wall in RF of the Baker Bowl. In some ways, he was to RF there, what Yaz was to RF in Fenway.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Commissioner
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Carl Yastrzemski had somewhat of odd career. From 1992-70 Yastrzemski was an elite player. Then from 1971-83 he was just ho-hum.

    1963-70 (1,236 G, 5,314 PA): .301/.402/.513, 153 OPS+, 56.4 WAR
    1971-83 (1,764 G, 7,316 PA): .275/.370/.430, 118 OPS+, 30.2 WAR

    During the 1963-70 seasons, Yaz has lots of Blank Ink. He led in:

    OBP 5X
    OPS+ 4X
    OPS 4X
    BA 3X
    SLG 3X
    2B 3x
    Runs 2X
    Hits 2X
    TB 2X
    BB 2X
    HR 1X
    RBI 1X

    He also won 5 Gold Glove and of course won the Triple Crown and the 1967 AL MVP Award. After 1970 he led in runs scored one time in 1974. And that's it. So what happened after 1970? Any theories?
    Eh. From 1971 on he put up very good numbers for 13 more seasons after his peak. If you look, his offensive stats for that span are fairly comparable to some one like Fisk. Even post 1970, he still hit 200+ homeruns, had almost 300 doubles, had close to 1000 runs batted in, batted .275, and walked a ton. He helped them win one pennant, stay in contention for several others, and up until they started shifting him to DH and 1B, remained the best ever at fielding the Green Monster and then shifted back to LF when they needed him to. Had that been all he ever accomplished he would still be a fan favorite in Boston, albeit not a Hall of Famer. When you add those numbers to what he did before the age of 32, it's why he's in Cooperstown. The guy was still consistently averaging 69 runs scored and 75 runs batted in a season through age 44. He didn't need to carry the team like he did in '67 because they had Fisk, Dewey, Lynn and Rice to put up the monster numbers in his later years. The fact that he had back to back 100 RBI seasons when he was in late 30s should have made Sox fans happy and if they were expecting a massive resurgence, then they needed a reality check.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.
    That is because it often times come up in the context of the HOF around here. When you adjust some of the best hitters of all-time like Williams or Boggs, they are still not debatable HOFers. When you take a guy like Rice, it can be a make or break issue for many people. Nobody is suggesting that Boggs should not have his numbers looked at through the context of park adjustments but Rice should. A guy like Santo is a HOFer becuase of being a great fielder at 3B and a very good hitter. The fact that he hit better at home does diminish he overall stats, but he is still a HOFer. When you are a poor defensive CO with only 6 seasons over 130 games played, and whose only calling card is offense (in an extreme offensive ballpark), the park issue is a much bigger deal in handling his perception vs. reality.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-05-2013, 11:46 PM.

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  • JR Hart
    replied
    I think that 67 and 70 are the anomaly and that the rest of his seasons pretty much fall into line. Are his 73, 74. and 77 seasons really much worse than his other good seasons of the 60's? I don't think so. Yes, he had 2 fantastic years, but he had a very solid and consistant career. I really don't see anything "odd" about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    that much of Yaz's perceived value is really due to playing in an offensive park that inflates stats and creates illusions

    that a strikeout king who was not close to a high average guy could outhit a 3 (almost 4 time) batting champ in road games illustrates the point

    it would be like having Harmon Killebrew steal more bases than you or Nellie Fox out homering you

    when most think of Yaz they think of a 3 (almost 4) time batting champ who was the only AL player to hit .300 in 1968 and until last year the last player to win a triple crown


    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    You've mentioned a few times in a few different threads and I still have no idea what point you're trying to make.
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 01-05-2013, 11:31 PM.

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  • willshad
    replied
    I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

    Yaz won 3 batting championships and barely missed a fourth
    Reggie Jackson was an all time strikeout king

    In their careers, Reggie Jackson had a higher road batting average than Carl Yastrzemski
    You've mentioned a few times in a few different threads and I still have no idea what point you're trying to make.

    Leave a comment:

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