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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park
    That may, or may not be true.

    I'll otherwise suggest that we don't know how much Yaz' home stadium helped him. What we do know is that he hit better at home; like most players.


    to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in
    Was that you that said something earlier about 'chipping'?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park

    to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in
    If park was the only thing that mattered, there would be about the same amount of blue above on the left as below on the right. That clearly isn't the case. Yaz very likely benefited from his park...but would likely have hit somewhat better there anyway even if it were a neutral park. The idea is, we shouldn't only look at his road stats.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    He said "most" players. Not "all" players. And certainly not "every season."
    the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park

    to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post


    so much for that
    So much for what?

    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]118213[/ATTACH]

    You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
    You do see the tail end, that shows some players hit better on the road than at home, don't you?
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Bob Watson 1975 home stats
    .276 BA 6 HR 29 RBI

    Bob Watson 1975 road stats
    .358 12 HR 56 RBI

    Buster Posey career home stats
    .292 BA 14 HR 77 RBI

    Buster Posey career road stats
    .332 BA 32 HR 114 RBI

    Joe DiMaggio 1939 home stats
    .350 BA 12 HR 50 RBI

    Joe DiMaggio 1939 road stats
    .413 BA 18 HR 76 RBi

    Hank Aaron career home stats
    .303 BA 385 HR 1117 RBI

    Hank Aaron career road stats
    .306 BA 370 HR 1180 RBI


    so much for that
    He said "most" players. Not "all" players. And certainly not "every season."

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Bob Watson 1975 home stats
    .276 BA 6 HR 29 RBI

    Bob Watson 1975 road stats
    .358 12 HR 56 RBI

    Buster Posey career home stats
    .292 BA 14 HR 77 RBI

    Buster Posey career road stats
    .332 BA 32 HR 114 RBI

    Joe DiMaggio 1939 home stats
    .350 BA 12 HR 50 RBI

    Joe DiMaggio 1939 road stats
    .413 BA 18 HR 76 RBi

    Hank Aaron career home stats
    .303 BA 385 HR 1117 RBI

    Hank Aaron career road stats
    .306 BA 370 HR 1180 RBI


    so much for that

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    This is true of almost every player (that they are better at home than on the road)
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...effect-mirage/



    You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
    And what may be more extreme for Yaz is calculated already in wOBA, OPS+, WAR, what-have-you. Maybe not perfectly, but pretty well.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Yaz was a productive player IN FENWAY

    take him out of Fenway and he was less than stellar
    This is true of almost every player (that they are better at home than on the road)
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...effect-mirage/

    If you’re more of a graphical person, here’s a visual representation of hitters home/road wOBAs over the last five years.
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]118212[/ATTACH]
    You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Yaz was a productive player IN FENWAY

    take him out of Fenway and he was less than stellar

    career at home
    .306 BA .402 OBP .503 SA

    career on road
    .264 BA .357 OBP .422 SA

    look at some individual years

    1965 at home
    .331 BA 16 HR 53 RBI

    1965 on road
    .289 BA 4 HR 19 RBI

    1970 at home
    .353 22 HR 61 RBI

    1970 on road
    .306 BA 18 HR 41 RBI

    1977 at home
    .351 BA 14 HR 67 RBI

    1977 on road
    .239 14 HR 35 RBI

    Yaz won 3 batting championships and barely missed a fourth
    Reggie Jackson was an all time strikeout king

    In their careers, Reggie Jackson had a higher road batting average than Carl Yastrzemski

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    It's true, the fans were hung up on Yaz in 67, especially Yaz's inability to match it later on. Actually, listening to those fans go on about what a bum Yaz was throughout the 70s had me severely underrating him until I looked at the spreadsheets. To a visiting, say, Yankee fan, they might have put a different face on it, but my memory does not match 2B Coach's.
    Exactly - he was a wellll above average player for most of the 70' - All Star level in 2-3 of those seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    What do I need your numbers for, man? Who do you think knows more about him, the fans that watched, and loved, him? Or some spreadsheet? [/parody]
    It's true, the fans were hung up on Yaz in 67, especially Yaz's inability to match it later on. Actually, listening to those fans go on about what a bum Yaz was throughout the 70s had me severely underrating him until I looked at the spreadsheets. To a visiting, say, Yankee fan, they might have put a different face on it, but my memory does not match 2B Coach's.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    If you look at it closely, Yaz actually only had three (MAYBE 4) 'great ' seasons. other than that, he was 'good' for many years. In fact, if you take out his three best seasons, he is a very good match for Harold Baines, maybe worse if we consider his huge home/road splits.
    When you are the games best player for 3 or 4 seasons and still add another 50 WAR/20 WAA...you are one heck of a ballplayer.
    Would he have been better if he wasn't as great those 4 years and better for a different 4?

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
    I for one am convinced Yaz has been over-rated. He is standard-bearer for someone who starts out GREAT and then declines and levels off while still very young. And he still gets full credit for being at that high level for the whole era by fans who don't bother to look up the numbers.

    There is another good example in the same league, just ten years before in Al Kaline.

    Want a pitcher? Robin Roberts is of that mold. Hitters tend to be better examples of what I am talking about. If you are little below expectations as a pitcher, you are tougher to hide. Vida Blue was a good candidate for this type of over rated player but he quit playing for relevant teams by the age of 26. So fans stopped rating him one way or the other. Plus pitcher injuries are blamed for much of that decline and unrealized early expectations.

    I am not saying Yaz is something less that a terrific player. I just think many fans took the memories of his early years and stretched them out over his entire LONG LONG career.

    He slugged .430 for the last 7300 plate appearances of his career. And if you visited Boston from 71-83, all they would want to talk about would be his years 67-70 and the fact he managed 300 total bases at the age of 22.
    What do I need your numbers for, man? Who do you think knows more about him, the fans that watched, and loved, him? Or some spreadsheet? [/parody]

    Leave a comment:


  • Second Base Coach
    replied
    I for one am convinced Yaz has been over-rated. He is standard-bearer for someone who starts out GREAT and then declines and levels off while still very young. And he still gets full credit for being at that high level for the whole era by fans who don't bother to look up the numbers.

    There is another good example in the same league, just ten years before in Al Kaline.

    Want a pitcher? Robin Roberts is of that mold. Hitters tend to be better examples of what I am talking about. If you are little below expectations as a pitcher, you are tougher to hide. Vida Blue was a good candidate for this type of over rated player but he quit playing for relevant teams by the age of 26. So fans stopped rating him one way or the other. Plus pitcher injuries are blamed for much of that decline and unrealized early expectations.

    I am not saying Yaz is something less that a terrific player. I just think many fans took the memories of his early years and stretched them out over his entire LONG LONG career.

    He slugged .430 for the last 7300 plate appearances of his career. And if you visited Boston from 71-83, all they would want to talk about would be his years 67-70 and the fact he managed 300 total bases at the age of 22.
    Last edited by Second Base Coach; 01-05-2013, 04:58 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I'm too young to remember, but I am curious as to what the general pereception of Yaz was during the 70s. I would think that, after 1967 expectations for him were ridiculously high, and he was seen as a huge disappointment every year except for 1970. Yet, he was still being voted to the all star team every season until 1979, and received MVP votes almost every year until 1978 as well. obviously, the fans as well as the media still viewed him as a great player. Was he just getting votes based on reputation, or because he was so 'beloved'? Anyone could see that he wasn't the player he once was. if you compare him to someone like Tim Raines, who had a similar career path, Raines never made the all star team after age 27, and only had one 17th place MVP finish, despite some solid seasons.
    Again, living in Boston I felt that fans made Yaz bear the weight not only of his own "shortcomings" but their perennial disappointment in the team's finishes (except 75, of course, and in 78 they were distracted. Nevertheless, I'm sure that anyone who had an all star vote in Boston picked Yaz.

    To be fair, the disappointment stemmed from their expectation every year that the old Yaz was coming back.

    This is just one subjective opinion, but I think you have hit on something. It's common, of course, for a superstar to get named to the all star team even in an off year, especially if the other candidates are in their first all star calibre season. Again, it's my impression, but it seemed as if Yaz was seen as having an off year 10 years in a row, rather than just declining. Perhaps because it started so early, and he stayed at the same lower level for so long, rather than going further downhill fast.

    Leave a comment:

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