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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • #31
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    If you look at it closely, Yaz actually only had three (MAYBE 4) 'great ' seasons. other than that, he was 'good' for many years. In fact, if you take out his three best seasons, he is a very good match for Harold Baines, maybe worse if we consider his huge home/road splits.
    When you are the games best player for 3 or 4 seasons and still add another 50 WAR/20 WAA...you are one heck of a ballplayer.
    Would he have been better if he wasn't as great those 4 years and better for a different 4?
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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    • #32
      Originally posted by filihok View Post
      What do I need your numbers for, man? Who do you think knows more about him, the fans that watched, and loved, him? Or some spreadsheet? [/parody]
      It's true, the fans were hung up on Yaz in 67, especially Yaz's inability to match it later on. Actually, listening to those fans go on about what a bum Yaz was throughout the 70s had me severely underrating him until I looked at the spreadsheets. To a visiting, say, Yankee fan, they might have put a different face on it, but my memory does not match 2B Coach's.
      Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
        It's true, the fans were hung up on Yaz in 67, especially Yaz's inability to match it later on. Actually, listening to those fans go on about what a bum Yaz was throughout the 70s had me severely underrating him until I looked at the spreadsheets. To a visiting, say, Yankee fan, they might have put a different face on it, but my memory does not match 2B Coach's.
        Exactly - he was a wellll above average player for most of the 70' - All Star level in 2-3 of those seasons.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

        Comment


        • #34
          Yaz was a productive player IN FENWAY

          take him out of Fenway and he was less than stellar

          career at home
          .306 BA .402 OBP .503 SA

          career on road
          .264 BA .357 OBP .422 SA

          look at some individual years

          1965 at home
          .331 BA 16 HR 53 RBI

          1965 on road
          .289 BA 4 HR 19 RBI

          1970 at home
          .353 22 HR 61 RBI

          1970 on road
          .306 BA 18 HR 41 RBI

          1977 at home
          .351 BA 14 HR 67 RBI

          1977 on road
          .239 14 HR 35 RBI

          Yaz won 3 batting championships and barely missed a fourth
          Reggie Jackson was an all time strikeout king

          In their careers, Reggie Jackson had a higher road batting average than Carl Yastrzemski
          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
            Yaz was a productive player IN FENWAY

            take him out of Fenway and he was less than stellar
            This is true of almost every player (that they are better at home than on the road)
            http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...effect-mirage/

            If you’re more of a graphical person, here’s a visual representation of hitters home/road wOBAs over the last five years.
            [ATTACH=CONFIG]118212[/ATTACH]
            You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by filihok View Post
              This is true of almost every player (that they are better at home than on the road)
              http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...effect-mirage/



              You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
              And what may be more extreme for Yaz is calculated already in wOBA, OPS+, WAR, what-have-you. Maybe not perfectly, but pretty well.
              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

              Comment


              • #37
                Bob Watson 1975 home stats
                .276 BA 6 HR 29 RBI

                Bob Watson 1975 road stats
                .358 12 HR 56 RBI

                Buster Posey career home stats
                .292 BA 14 HR 77 RBI

                Buster Posey career road stats
                .332 BA 32 HR 114 RBI

                Joe DiMaggio 1939 home stats
                .350 BA 12 HR 50 RBI

                Joe DiMaggio 1939 road stats
                .413 BA 18 HR 76 RBi

                Hank Aaron career home stats
                .303 BA 385 HR 1117 RBI

                Hank Aaron career road stats
                .306 BA 370 HR 1180 RBI


                so much for that
                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                  Bob Watson 1975 home stats
                  .276 BA 6 HR 29 RBI

                  Bob Watson 1975 road stats
                  .358 12 HR 56 RBI

                  Buster Posey career home stats
                  .292 BA 14 HR 77 RBI

                  Buster Posey career road stats
                  .332 BA 32 HR 114 RBI

                  Joe DiMaggio 1939 home stats
                  .350 BA 12 HR 50 RBI

                  Joe DiMaggio 1939 road stats
                  .413 BA 18 HR 76 RBi

                  Hank Aaron career home stats
                  .303 BA 385 HR 1117 RBI

                  Hank Aaron career road stats
                  .306 BA 370 HR 1180 RBI


                  so much for that
                  He said "most" players. Not "all" players. And certainly not "every season."
                  1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                  1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                  1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                  The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                  The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post


                    so much for that
                    So much for what?

                    Originally posted by filihok View Post
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]118213[/ATTACH]

                    You can see that most players have huge Home/Road splits
                    You do see the tail end, that shows some players hit better on the road than at home, don't you?
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                      He said "most" players. Not "all" players. And certainly not "every season."
                      the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park

                      to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in
                      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                        the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park

                        to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in
                        If park was the only thing that mattered, there would be about the same amount of blue above on the left as below on the right. That clearly isn't the case. Yaz very likely benefited from his park...but would likely have hit somewhat better there anyway even if it were a neutral park. The idea is, we shouldn't only look at his road stats.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                          the only one that matters in this thread is Yaz and he was definitely helped by his home park
                          That may, or may not be true.

                          I'll otherwise suggest that we don't know how much Yaz' home stadium helped him. What we do know is that he hit better at home; like most players.


                          to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance with a little stubborness thrown in
                          Was that you that said something earlier about 'chipping'?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

                            Yaz won 3 batting championships and barely missed a fourth
                            Reggie Jackson was an all time strikeout king

                            In their careers, Reggie Jackson had a higher road batting average than Carl Yastrzemski
                            You've mentioned a few times in a few different threads and I still have no idea what point you're trying to make.
                            My top 10 players:

                            1. Babe Ruth
                            2. Barry Bonds
                            3. Ty Cobb
                            4. Ted Williams
                            5. Willie Mays
                            6. Alex Rodriguez
                            7. Hank Aaron
                            8. Honus Wagner
                            9. Lou Gehrig
                            10. Mickey Mantle

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                            • #44
                              I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.

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                              • #45
                                that much of Yaz's perceived value is really due to playing in an offensive park that inflates stats and creates illusions

                                that a strikeout king who was not close to a high average guy could outhit a 3 (almost 4 time) batting champ in road games illustrates the point

                                it would be like having Harmon Killebrew steal more bases than you or Nellie Fox out homering you

                                when most think of Yaz they think of a 3 (almost 4) time batting champ who was the only AL player to hit .300 in 1968 and until last year the last player to win a triple crown


                                Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                                You've mentioned a few times in a few different threads and I still have no idea what point you're trying to make.
                                Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 01-06-2013, 12:31 AM.
                                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                                Comment

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