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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
    Umm, once again his stats against Lefties are not at all bad or taking away from his greatness. And there is no way in the deepest, hottest pit of the Infernal Place that Ted Williams would be platooned.
    I was misusing the term. Not as in "Andre Ethier platooned", but as in, facing lefties a ton through deliberate opposing management decisions.

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  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Yup. The third best (or around) left-handed hitter vs. lefties in history. The OPS+ splits just show how much he decimated righties beyond fairness, decency, and comprehension.

    I am worried there are people who thing the handedness split OPS+ shows how good a guy is in that platoon. I hope that isn't the case.
    Musial only had the platoon advantage in 64% of his PA. Bonds 67%. Ted hardly faced lefties at all before WWII, and only 23% of the time in his career.

    There are only a couple (I think literally, two) LHH ever whose numbers haven't been dragged down by LHP. Given his career rates, if he faced lefties as much as Musial, his overall numbers would have dropped like a rock. And unlike Bonds and today's lefties, he wasn't regularly facing LH specialists throwing 97-100 with an off pitch at 91-93. Nor analysts hired by teams recognizing "meta-data" like we are sitting here right now, to exploit relative weaknesses.

    As I said, Greatest Hitter Ever is a unique bar. Just as Honus Wagner had no weaknesses and had the strength, size, and agility to be the best in any era. We can't really say that about more than a couple other guys, ever. GOAT is unique bar to hurdle.

    We'll have to wait to see how Ruth did against lefties.

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...47#post2122347
    "According to the data they have no lefty has ever faced a lefty pitcher more times than Barry Bonds who faced them in 4147 PA. The 300th most chances against a lefty was 737 PA by Johnny Grubb. Out of those 300 players Ted Williams based on the data that BRef has the 3rd highest OPS at .915. BRef is missing about 600 PA for Ted and my data has him at .926 with 20 PA missing. The .926 OPS is just one point below Stan Musial who is at second but who also has a bunch of data missing as well."
    Yup. The third best (or around) left-handed hitter vs. lefties in history. The OPS+ splits just show how much he decimated righties beyond fairness, decency, and comprehension.

    I am worried there are people who thing the handedness split OPS+ shows how good a guy is in that platoon. I hope that isn't the case.

    Leave a comment:


  • ipitch
    replied
    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...47#post2122347
    "According to the data they have no lefty has ever faced a lefty pitcher more times than Barry Bonds who faced them in 4147 PA. The 300th most chances against a lefty was 737 PA by Johnny Grubb. Out of those 300 players Ted Williams based on the data that BRef has the 3rd highest OPS at .915. BRef is missing about 600 PA for Ted and my data has him at .926 with 20 PA missing. The .926 OPS is just one point below Stan Musial who is at second but who also has a bunch of data missing as well."

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    I think for Ted to be crowned Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived (which he always insisted he be announced as, and most fans in the world now have deemed him)...... that's a different standard. There should be nothing that could be exploited in any era, under different circumstances and contexts.

    If he played today he'd be platooned and facing lefties 30-40% of the time and lefty specialists every game. It wasn't until late in his career that he was really platooned much at all. And because of Fenway he wasn't facing lefties much, even in his era.
    I bet he has one of the very best splits of any lefty vs. lefties in history.

    And I wasn't calling him the greatest ever - I was using a hypothetical.

    Bottom line - you can have a massive gap in relative OPS+ in splits and still be dominating at both splits. Not many can, but Williams did.

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  • 1905 Giants
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    I think for Ted to be crowned Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived (which he always insisted he be announced as, and most fans in the world now have deemed him)...... that's a different standard. There should be nothing that could be exploited in any era, under different circumstances and contexts.

    If he played today he'd be platooned and facing lefties 30-40% of the time and lefty specialists every game. It wasn't until late in his career that he was really platooned much at all. And because of Fenway he wasn't facing lefties much, even in his era.
    Umm, once again his stats against Lefties are not at all bad or taking away from his greatness. And there is no way in the deepest, hottest pit of the Infernal Place that Ted Williams would be platooned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    The greatest hitter ever could have a massive relative split and still be great. It's like Phelps winning only half as many golds as in 08.
    I think for Ted to be crowned Greatest Hitter That Ever Lived (which he always insisted he be announced as, and most fans in the world now have deemed him)...... that's a different standard. There should be nothing that could be exploited in any era, under different circumstances and contexts.

    If he played today he'd be platooned and facing lefties 30-40% of the time and lefty specialists every game. It wasn't until late in his career that he was really platooned much at all. And because of Fenway he wasn't facing lefties much, even in his era.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    Do you mean on the team, or people they could have traded for, drafted, or purchased?



    He did very well. But 1) he would be platooned and specialized vastly more (probably 20% more) in later eras and 2) even in HIS time, he didn't face lefties as much as he should have.

    So it could be said, and accurately, that his numbers are inflated relative to many of the other greatest hitters ever.

    The second point I'm thinking is.....if he's the greatest hitter of all time- which everyone calls him today- shouldn't he have crushed lefties? Better than anyone? Should the greatest hitter ever have one of the worst relative scores against left handed pitching? Shouldn't he have no major deficits?

    I have little doubt Ruth hit much better against lefties than Ted, also. Especially relatively speaking.
    The greatest hitter ever could have a massive relative split and still be great. It's like Phelps winning only half as many golds as in 08.

    Leave a comment:


  • ipitch
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    The second point I'm thinking is.....if he's the greatest hitter of all time- which everyone calls him today- shouldn't he have crushed lefties? Better than anyone? Should the greatest hitter ever have one of the worst relative scores against left handed pitching? Shouldn't he have no major deficits?
    A .316 BA and .938 OPS against lefties isn't crushing it?

    Hank Aaron (against all pitchers as a whole) can't match either of those numbers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    Look at all those PA's Yaz got vs lefties ... 515 more than Thome, 1,437 more than Howard ... did the Red Sox just not have anybody who could (a) play left field and (b) hit lefthanders?
    Do you mean on the team, or people they could have traded for, drafted, or purchased?

    Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    Ted may not have faced many lefthanders, but he did OK against those he did face, hmmm? .316/.438/.500
    He did very well. But 1) he would be platooned and specialized vastly more (probably 20% more) in later eras and 2) even in HIS time, he didn't face lefties as much as he should have.

    So it could be said, and accurately, that his numbers are inflated relative to many of the other greatest hitters ever.

    The second point I'm thinking is.....if he's the greatest hitter of all time- which everyone calls him today- shouldn't he have crushed lefties? Better than anyone? Should the greatest hitter ever have one of the worst relative scores against left handed pitching? Shouldn't he have no major deficits?

    I have little doubt Ruth hit much better against lefties than Ted, also. Especially relatively speaking.

    Leave a comment:


  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    Yaz could not hit left handed pitching. Today, that would be much more of a liability than it was in his career, or any era prior.

    Worst relative career OPS scores vs. left handed pitching.

    ...

    Notice Ted Williams at #9. And how few PA he had versus lefties vs. his career PA. More on that later.
    Look at all those PA's Yaz got vs lefties ... 515 more than Thome, 1,437 more than Howard ... did the Red Sox just not have anybody who could (a) play left field and (b) hit lefthanders?

    Ted may not have faced many lefthanders, but he did OK against those he did face, hmmm? .316/.438/.500

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Yaz could not hit left handed pitching. Today, that would be much more of a liability than it was in his career, or any era prior.

    Worst relative career OPS scores vs. left handed pitching.

    Capture.PNG

    Notice Ted Williams at #9. And how few PA he had versus lefties vs. his career PA. More on that later.
    Last edited by Floyd Gondolli; 08-22-2016, 11:48 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Not a Bosox fan but I do recall watching Yaz on his way to the Triple Crown in 1967.
    It was one of the best all around seasons I can recall seeing.
    Seemed like he was always in the middle of a rally, getting the big hit.
    Making the catch or throwing out a runner in key game situations.
    He did it all in 1967.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    I remember about 76 or so following the sox on the 'wmex radio network', and there was some joker following yaz around with an accordian in the stands. Yaz would come up, and it was suddenly Lawrence Welk time, you know polka music? Donno how long it lasted but Woods and Ned Martin laughed about it.....never seen it mentioned anywheres, but it Did happen. I think. I was 10.
    I was a huge listener of WMEX 1510 AM during the 60's. My schoolbus driver always had it on for the kids. WMEX on air personalities were known as the Good Guys and the lineup included Mel Miller, Melvin X. Melvin, Dan Donovan, Ron Robin, Charlie Tuna, the Jones Boys, and the king of the air, Arnie "Woo Woo" Ginsburg who hosted the Night Train Show. They played all the rock n roll hits.

    Arnie's big sponsor was Adventure Car Hop on Route 1 in Saugus, a popular hamburger joint. If you ordered a 'Ginsburger" you received a free single which usually was a top ten hit. If you said, 'Woo Woo Ginsburg" to the waitress when she brought your order out to your car, you got another Ginsburger free.

    A sports talk show on WMEX "Cliff and Claff" had Cliff Keane and Larry Claflin hosting, and talked about the Red Sox all year round. Another favorite of mine was Larry Glick's show (also on WBZ later on) on around midnight. He would get fans from all over the East Coast calling him about any non-controversial and happy topics (they were called "Glickniks") and it was always light and funny. He was always replaying favorite bizarre conversations he had with people during the late night hours. My favorite story was from a caller from the South who talked to Larry Glick about the night his orangutan attacked him. It was a classic!

    Leave a comment:


  • TomBodet
    replied
    I remember about 76 or so following the sox on the 'wmex radio network', and there was some joker following yaz around with an accordian in the stands. Yaz would come up, and it was suddenly Lawrence Welk time, you know polka music? Donno how long it lasted but Woods and Ned Martin laughed about it.....never seen it mentioned anywheres, but it Did happen. I think. I was 10.

    Leave a comment:

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