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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Thats just the answer I expected and I think you know my answer.
    Anyone who thinks that playing in Fenway doesn't help a hitter's raw numbers is wrong (to the best of available knowledge).
    Anyone who thinks that adjusted numbers such as wRC+ are not a better measure of a player's true production, are also wrong.

    Anyone who wants to challenge measures like wRC+ are going to have to so with a lot of math.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    I hear ya Jack, I did say that in some previous posts. That most of us are on the same page in one respect . . . .
    I don't see any harm in posting more info on the park, where it stood in rank and for how long.
    Oh, definitely; it's interesting stuff.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    I'm not going to go back and look. If there's something you'd like me to see, show me.
    Of course playing in a hitters park helps hitters.

    That's why adjusted stats like OPS+ and wRC+ are the best indicators of a player's true offensive performance. And are certainly better indicators than total batting average, total home runs, total RBI, or just looking at road numbers
    Thats just the answer I expected and I think you know my answer.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    I don't think there's any substantive disagreement about Fenway's properties as a hitters' ballpark. There is a good deal of difference in interpreting how this affects the evaluation of Yaz as a hitter. Providing further documentation of what is not in dispute will not settle that issue.
    I hear ya Jack, I did say that in some previous posts. That most of us are on the same page in one respect, it's a hitter's park that we only differ in only to what degree it did benefit Yaz and some other Bosox hitters.
    I don't see any harm in posting more info on the park, where it stood in rank and for how long.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-14-2013, 05:27 PM.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Yes some have downplayed what that home park meant to Yaz and some other Bosox hitters.It's a hitter's heaven.
    Go back and look.
    I don't think there's any substantive disagreement about Fenway's properties as a hitters' ballpark. There is a good deal of difference in interpreting how this affects the evaluation of Yaz as a hitter. Providing further documentation of what is not in dispute will not settle that issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Yes some have downplayed what that home park meant to Yaz and some other Bosox hitters.It's a hitter's heaven.
    Go back and look.
    I'm not going to go back and look. If there's something you'd like me to see, show me.

    Of course playing in a hitters park helps hitters.

    That's why adjusted stats like OPS+ and wRC+ are the best indicators of a player's true offensive performance. And are certainly better indicators than total batting average, total home runs, total RBI, or just looking at road numbers

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    Has anyone said anything otherwise?
    Yes some have downplayed what that home park meant to Yaz and some other Bosox hitters.It's a hitter's heaven.
    Go back and look.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    Well, not really.

    The API is a better measure. A decline from 108 to 106 doesn't really mean much.
    I'm sure there are several other measures too, but the point is Fenway is no longer as hitter friendly as it once was.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by TonyK View Post
    This finally answers my question about the renovations to Fenway that diminished the hitter's advantage. The .276 average from 1969-1984 declines to .2707 from 1985-2003.
    Well, not really.

    The API is a better measure. A decline from 108 to 106 doesn't really mean much.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    A bit more on Fenway, a hitters park.

    Notice the other parks in that top 12 list.
    Coors in the only modern day park on the list, all the others are gone, except for Wrigley.
    Also some like Forbes and Crosley make the list but none held a good hitting park title for as many years as Fenway.
    There is no break since 1937 for Fenway, right up to 2003, it's on the list. 1937-1968------------1969-1984--------1985-2003.

    Notice we don't see any other older AL parks, NY, Detroit, Chicago, Philly, Saint Louis/Baltimore, Cleveland and Washington. The years we have been speaking of, Ted Williams, Fred Lynn and Yaz.

    How much more help do we need, this has been one of the best hitting parks for the last 70+ years.

    Now we could play with all the math as we have seen on the board or we could use common sense. If you play in a good hitting park, most times your going to have better home stats and that will pad your career numbers....................or is that too simple.
    This finally answers my question about the renovations to Fenway that diminished the hitter's advantage. The .276 average from 1969-1984 declines to .2707 from 1985-2003. The Sox have had a bushel of sluggers through the years who hit 40 or more doubles in a season.

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  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    If you play in a good hitting park, most times your going to have better home stats and that will pad your career numbers....................or is that too simple.
    Has anyone said anything otherwise?

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    A bit more on Fenway, a hitters park.

    Notice the other parks in that top 12 list.
    Coors in the only modern day park on the list, all the others are gone, except for Wrigley.
    Also some like Forbes and Crosley make the list but none held a good hitting park title for as many years as Fenway.
    There is no break since 1937 for Fenway, right up to 2003, it's on the list. 1937-1968------------1969-1984--------1985-2003.

    Notice we don't see any other older AL parks, NY, Detroit, Chicago, Philly, Saint Louis/Baltimore, Cleveland and Washington. The years we have been speaking of, Ted Williams, Fred Lynn and Yaz.

    How much more help do we need, this has been one of the best hitting parks for the last 70+ years.

    Now we could play with all the math as we have seen on the board or we could use common sense. If you play in a good hitting park, most times your going to have better home stats and that will pad your career numbers....................or is that too simple.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-14-2013, 03:15 PM.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Did I miss a thread on Fenway's dimensions and lack of foul territory and how it helped hitters? Have you also discussed how it masked Ballgame's defense, or is that for a different thread?

    Don't know if there was ever a thread specifically dedicated to Fenway dimensions and how it helped hitters.
    I do know for sure it may have been "a part" of themes dealing with some Bosox players.
    Don't recall much that was brought up about how it effected fielding, except for the effect on left fielders assists, balls hit off the LF wall, the wall not that far away.

    I chose to not only mention dimensions, home to fence or wall but also the batter's eye, the back drop, small foul territory down the lines and that 54 feet, home plate to the backstop, at one time it was one of the shortest distances in both leagues.
    They may seem small, but add them all up, hitters will benefit over a season, over a career.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Sandoval is only one player, we could probably find more like that.
    The higher the number, the less likely it's coincidence.
    There are a number of big name Bosox players on that list and 6 of them have some significant gaps in home and away stats.
    And Again, I'm sure if we search we can find some Bosox with not so big gaps.
    I didn't put the label on Fenway, it's been known a a hitters park long before this board, before some of us were born.

    It has it all, the wall, odd configuation RF to RCF look at the split doubles for some LF Bosox hitters hugh, not much foul territory down the lines and super short distance home plate to the back stop 54 feet.
    When you add them all up, they are a plus to the batter.
    Did I miss a thread on Fenway's dimensions and lack of foul territory and how it helped hitters? Have you also discussed how it masked Ballgame's defense, or is that for a different thread?

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I think that the career path of Yaz was more or less typical, in the way that he declined in his 30s. I am more interested in a guy who suddenly got BETTER in his 30s, and without the help of steroids. For example, Dolph Camilli. Up until age 29 he had a career 98 OPS+, and then from age 29-35 he had a 7 year run during which he averaged a 152 OPS+. A modern day example of this would be Jose Bautista.
    A bit of a leap there but
    1933 played only 16 games.
    1934 played 134 games..... 32 with Cubs and 102 with Phils, the move may have effected his hitting, maybe.
    1935 156 games, OPS+ 99.
    1936 and up his OPS+ really did rise.
    He played only two full seasons, 1934 with 134 games and 1935 with 156 games before he hit much better in 1936.
    If he was in the league 4 or 5 years, full time and then his OPS+ leaped I think it would mean more.
    As it was he took off his 3rd full season, could have just settlled down, couple of more years experience, better hitter.

    Leave a comment:

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