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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • Bucketfoot
    replied
    Yaz was known for having great first halves that helped put him in All Star games later on in his career-'74, 75, '78, 79, 82, then semi tanking in the 2nd half. Age, injuries, wear and tear mostly getting to him. Check out his first half of '82, pretty good.

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  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    Thanks Sultan. I like your work on those projections.
    I do also. Very much.

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  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    It should be noted that tOPS+ does not tell you the split of a players home and road OPS+ scores. IF a player played in a higher offensive home park, his home TOPS+ goes up, and his road TOPS+ goes down even if he was a better RELATIVE hitter on the road, and it doesn't account for a normal home road edge either.
    Ted Williams for example has a 94 tOPS+ on the road, but he was a better relative hitter (virtually identical) on the road and away from Fenway park than he was "at home in Fenway".

    FWIW though, Williams OPS+ against Lefties would be about 145 which seems to be somewhat susceptible. It was about 200 against righties.
    Thanks, Brett- many are misusing and misinterpreting home/road tOPS+. This has happened frequently in various threads, including this one.

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  • pheasant
    replied
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    In an effort to not hijack a Yaz thread any further, I'll just post the link Pheasant.

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...40#post2089240
    Thanks Sultan. I like your work on those projections.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    In an effort to not hijack a Yaz thread any further, I'll just post the link Pheasant.

    http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...40#post2089240

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    I basically place 90% of my player's value on what he did over a 9-10 year streak.

    This platoon thing that Floyd initially brought up earlier got me thinking. I wanted to see how lefties did against clean-Bonds during his incredible 9 year span from 1990-1998.

    Bonds had 1965 PA from 1990-1998, means that he faced a lefty in 34.4% of his PA. He put up a line of .298/.409/.562 against those lefties. That breaks down to a tOPS+ of 87 and an overall OPS+ of 163. I.e, had Bonds faced lefties 100% of the time, his OPS+ is still an amazing 163. Bonds BB% dropped markedly when he faced lefties. Bonds was walked far less frequently when he faced lefties, which explains why his OB% plummeted to ONLY .409 against them.

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  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    Or easier, partly because the pitchers would be subject to those conditions.

    [ATTACH]156870[/ATTACH]
    Pitchers could coast againsy nearly everyone except one or two batters if nobody was on, or only a guy on first base.

    The league BA was higher because K rates were so low, outfields were much larger on average, and fielding equipment was poor (scorers were very loose with judgements).

    There are points/counterpoints to be made. Imo it simply comes down to elites thriving no matter the conditions.

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  • Calif_Eagle
    replied
    Originally posted by TonyK View Post
    Yaz credited Hungarian born trainer Gene Berde for helping him get into great shape for the 1967 season. Ted Williams also had suggested Yaz close his stance, while Bobby Doerr advised him to raise his arms higher. One source mentions that Yaz never duplicated Berde's same off-season training habits in later years as they were too difficult.

    Had he produced several more seasons like 1967 then I think we would be debating who was the better player - Yaz or Ted.

    Anyone know what Yaz's feelings are about electing some of the PED users to the Hall of Fame?
    I recall reading about the above in a book about the "Impossible Dream" season and was always amazed that since Yaz was very highly paid for his era (didn't really need to work in the off-season) and that the workout regimen of Gene Berde resulted in a 1967 Triple Crown season that Yaz didn't make a deal with Gene to be his personal trainer and keep on with the same workout program for season after season.

    One can only imagine what kind of numbers Yaz may have produced in the next few seasons. Although... he was 27 in the Triple Crown season and that is the year Bill James identified as a typical ballplayers peak season.
    Last edited by Calif_Eagle; 08-23-2016, 02:52 PM. Reason: clarity, remove content

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  • brett
    replied
    It should be noted that tOPS+ does not tell you the split of a players home and road OPS+ scores. IF a player played in a higher offensive home park, his home TOPS+ goes up, and his road TOPS+ goes down even if he was a better RELATIVE hitter on the road, and it doesn't account for a normal home road edge either.

    Ted Williams for example has a 94 tOPS+ on the road, but he was a better relative hitter (virtually identical) on the road and away from Fenway park than he was "at home in Fenway".

    FWIW though, Williams OPS+ against Lefties would be about 145 which seems to be somewhat susceptible. It was about 200 against righties.
    Last edited by brett; 08-23-2016, 02:37 PM.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    Or easier, since the pitchers would be subject to those conditions.
    That is true (except to a degree for injury rehab if you happened to be someone who had a major injury like Bonds in '99).

    I want to stress that I mentioned the high strike NOT because Bonds was not a good high strike hitter, but Bonds really transformed into a low ball slugger around 2000. Bonds was an excellent high ball hitter in the '90s. He was hard to K. He did not have a flaw as a hitter at least given the parks of his time. Through '98 he already had 99.6 WAR in a league with steroid users, and 289 IBBs in fewer than 1900 games, just 4 short of Aaron's "record" that took almost 3300 games.

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  • Calif_Eagle
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    Fair enough, Joe. I knew there was a difference, but not that it was that great. Thanks for the data. I see your point, too, about Cro, Hoss, and Milkshake. They could have played in Heiwa Park in Fukuoka Japan and it wouldn't have helped.

    On the other hand, even further off topic, I've heard, and the splits bear it out, that Paul Waner benefited from the wide open expanses of Forbes Field, and I found that Earl Averill had a huge home advantage despite playing in "Cavernous Municipal Stadium." tOPS+ of 110-90 for Waner, 117-83 for Averill.

    The Clipper was a line drive hitter, too, just on a bigger scale. You'd think it would have been possible for him, like Mel Ott in reverse, to be a homers guy away and send liners all over that huge outfield at home like Paul Waner on steroids, hitting .380 and slugging .580. (He did have way more triples at home, not many doubles.) It ain't that simple, is it?
    Quote of Post 145.

    I'm not sure anyone noticed or even cares but Earl Averill's primary home park for his 10 year run in Cleveland's outfield was not Municipal Stadium but was League Park, which was tailor made for a left handed hitter.

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  • ipitch
    replied
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Certainly the high strike is something to consider. Along with train travel, no night games, sweltering heat, double headers, exhibiton games during the season, injury prevention and recovery knowledge, etc etc....many factors would make it harder.
    Or easier, partly because the pitchers would be subject to those conditions.

    Untitled.jpg
    Last edited by ipitch; 08-23-2016, 02:18 PM.

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  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post
    Of course, this eliminates all players before 1961/1962. To be fair to the earlier players it would be interesting to list those who played in 149 or 150 games.
    If I knew how I would run a report of players who played 96.9% of their teams games.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Most seasons with 157+ games played and 170 OPS+

    Willie Mays 3
    Carl Yastrzemski 3
    Barry Bonds 3
    Albert Pujols 3
    Of course, this eliminates all players before 1961/1962. To be fair to the earlier players it would be interesting to list those who played in 149 or 150 games.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    Wow, that's unreal that you put Bonds #2. You've gone from a player-perspective guy to a stat-head. That's pretty impressive. You've gotten much more objective during the past couple of years. Bonds was a major league jerk. And I get why a GM would drop him 2-3 spots on the all-time draft. But his talent was undeniable.

    And I'm a huge 9-10 year peak guy too.

    What post did you list Bonds as #2? I want to see your statistical projections.
    In our top 100 list thread I have him #2.

    I would have to do a search but I posted a chart of his mortal decline numbers. There's still a gap between Ruth and him (no it's not just the pitching that puts him ahead folks) but at the end of the day you're left with a power/speed beast who would have thrived in the field in his twilight years imo. The question for me was Bonds or Cobb. That was a tough hurdle but I feel ok with it.

    I'm not 100% stat or traditional. Just a mix.

    I should clarify. The ranking at #2 is a not taking PED numbers entirely at face value, but it's also not ignoring them completely. Its complicated.
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 08-23-2016, 12:05 PM.

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