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**PVNICK** · 01-03-2013, 11:23 AM

Giambi has the better numbers. But in a way (or two) I think Rice was the greater player. For one by the age Giambi became a regular, Rice was already a perennial MVP candiate. Rice of course was done by his early 30s whereas Giambi post mid 30s has still been productive in his own way. The second reason: Rice was a flesh and blood ball player whereas Giambi was a pharmaceutical lab creation. So if you were starting in a non PED era and selected Rice you would have an above average to fearsome hitter. If you took Giambi you would have maybe the 24 year old rookie with this slash line: 256/364/398 in 210 PA. So I took Rice though the lines of type tell me otherwise.

**pheasant** · 01-03-2013, 12:22 PM

Although I think Rice is overrated, I give Jim Rice the victory here. I have no idea how a clean Giambi would have done. Giambi's numbers are better. But he's guilty of cheating.

**brett** · 01-03-2013, 12:36 PM

what is rWAR, fWAR and sWAR?

**SamtheBravesFan** · 01-03-2013, 12:45 PM

I'm surprised Rice beat Brock in the last match, given the backlash that home run hitters are getting these days.

Giving Giambi a steroid discount, I think Rice beats him. Giambi's hanging around while Rice had the good sense not to do that when he crashed.

**Jackaroo Dave** · 01-03-2013, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by brett View Post

what is rWAR, fWAR and sWAR?

bbRef, Fangraphs, and Seamheads, who (just to be on the safe side) COMPARE RICE and GIAMBI differently.

**Cowtipper** · 01-03-2013, 03:07 PM

This one is Rice by far.

**Sockeye** · 01-03-2013, 04:16 PM

Since neither player offered much in terms of value in the field or on the bases. Lets compare their OPS+ by age

age...Rice...Giambi

21...89...n/a
22...128...n/a
23...120...n/a
24...147...107
25...157...109
26...154...126
27...122...130
28...117...153
29...131...187
30...141...199
31...112...172
32...123...148
33...137...90
34...101...161
35...102...148
36...70...107
37...n/a...128
38...n/a...92
39...n/a...98
40...n/a...140
41...n/a...74

So much is made of Rice's peak from 1977-79. However Giambi's peak was far greater from 2000-02

**GiambiJuice** · 01-03-2013, 04:22 PM

Guess who I voted for :hyper:

**SamtheBravesFan** · 01-03-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Sockeye View Post

So much is made of Rice's peak from 1977-79. However Giambi's peak was far greater from 2000-02

But no one trusts Giambi's numbers from those years because of steroids. Given the "discount", that means Rice is better.

**GiambiJuice** · 01-03-2013, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post

But no one trusts Giambi's numbers from those years because of steroids. Given the "discount", that means Rice is better.

but how big is the "discount"?

**Jackaroo Dave** · 01-03-2013, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

but how big is the "discount"?

George Eliot says prediction is the most gratuitous source of error, but I am afraid we will never know. I'm going to sit this one out as I don't feel remotely competent.

I did take a look at 24-year-old rookies with similar slash lines, particularly PA, OB, SLG, and the results were not impressive: Joe Kuhel and Brett Butler stuck out. Earl Averill was in there, but the wrong one. I didn't see anyone who would come close to Rice. Not that 210 PA are enough to decide anything. It's being a rookie at 24 that raises doubts for me.

Of all position players in the hall of fame, the only rookies 24 or older who weren't obviously way overdue are Bill Terry and Earl Combs. Beauty Bancroft had a slash line similar to Giambi's, but that was in over 600 PA, in 1915, and he was a shortstop who got in for his fielding, so, no real comp there.

**filihok** · 01-03-2013, 05:06 PM

Incredibly close

Using FanGraph's Value ratings
Giambi was worth 40.9 runs per 650 PA's
Rice was worth 40.2 runs per 650 PA's

We'll call that a wash

If we cut off the ends of both guys' careers to eliminate 'hanging on'
Giambi 98-08: 486 RAR, 6380 PA or 49.5 runs per 650 PA
Rice 75-86: 519 RAR, 7754 PA or 43.5 runs per 650 PA

Still very close. Rice's was longer but Giambi's was bigger.

In a case this close I'll go to WPA
Giambi has a commanding lead 46.6 wins to 22.7 for Rice.

If we look at another 'tie-breaker', playoff performance, Giambi also has an advantage
Giambi: 45 games, 174 PA, 145 wRC+
Rice: 18 games, 80 PA, 85 wRC+

By the absolute slimmest of margins, I'll take Giambi.

**JR Hart** · 01-03-2013, 07:45 PM

Rice is one of the most hated men (in regards to his performance) on this board. The only reason that he beat Brock is because Brock is even more defiled here, despite being a first ballot HOFer (I know we're "smarter" now.)

Let’s look at something that I like, 11 year peak season averages;

Rice 1975-85 ( age 22-32) 146 g, 91 r, 26 2b, 6 3b, 30 hr 106 RBI, .302/.353/.523, OPS+ 133, 306 TB

Giambi 1998-2008 (age 27-37) 138 g, 85 r, 25 2b, 1 3b, 32 hr, 99 RBI, .286/.419/.548 OPS+ 153 254 TB

About all Giambi does better is his OBP. Rice plays more, hits higher, and scores and bats in more runs. In the Bizarro world, a team of Giambis would defeat a team of Rices, without those inconvenient teammates. However, I like Rice’s hitting more, although it’s very close.

**filihok** · 01-03-2013, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

Rice is one of the most hated men (in regards to his performance) on this board. The only reason that he beat Brock is because Brock is even more defiled here, despite being a first ballot HOFer (I know we're "smarter" now.)

Let’s look at something that I like, 11 year peak season averages;

Rice 1975-85 ( age 22-32) 146 g, 91 r, 26 2b, 6 3b, 30 hr 106 RBI, .302/.353/.523, OPS+ 133, 306 TB

Giambi 1998-2008 (age 27-37) 138 g, 85 r, 25 2b, 1 3b, 32 hr, 99 RBI, .286/.419/.548 OPS+ 153 254 TB

About all Giambi does better is his OBP. Rice plays more, hits higher, and scores and bats in more runs. In the Bizarro world, a team of Giambis would defeat a team of Rices, without those inconvenient teammates. However, I like Rice’s hitting more, although it’s very close.

How about outs? How many outs does each guy make? That may be important

Jason Giambi	35.00%	7 votes
Jim Rice	65.00%	13 votes

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Jason Giambi vs Jim Rice

Jason Giambi vs Jim Rice

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