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Jason Giambi vs Jim Rice

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  • Jason Giambi vs Jim Rice

    I'm going to run a series of polls with the winner advancing each time to face another opponent. Will leave each poll up for a week. I'll try to provide as much statistical information as possible. Hopefully we can get some lively insightful debates going and bring to light some overlooked players from yesteryear.
    If you could pick between these two players to start your franchise with which would you pick? Please consider all relavent information. Their careers as a whole, peak performance, hitting, fielding, baserunning, positional value, league quality, etc.

    Jim Rice

    2089 games
    9058 plate appearances
    8225 at-bats
    1249 runs
    2452 hits
    373 doubles
    79 triples
    382 home runs
    1451 RBI
    58 stolen bases
    34 caught stealing
    670 walks
    1423 strikeouts
    .298 AVG
    .352 OBP
    .502 SLG
    .854 OPS
    128 OPS+
    4129 total bases
    1384 runs created
    6.0 RC/G
    102 AIR
    .628 OW%
    .798 Total Average
    .288 Secondary Average
    278.5 Win Shares
    128.1 WSAB
    44.3 rWAR
    56.1 fWAR
    44.4 sWAR

    Jason Giambi

    2163 games
    8622 plate appearances
    7021 at-bats
    1203 runs
    1968 hits
    395 doubles
    9 triples
    429 home runs
    1405 RBI
    20 stolen bases
    11 caught stealing
    1334 walks
    1504 strikeouts
    .280 AVG
    .403 OBP
    .522 SLG
    .926 OPS
    141 OPS+
    3668 total bases
    1590 runs created
    8.0 RC/G
    108 AIR
    .692 OW%
    .994 Total Average
    .433 Secondary Average
    316.4 Win Shares
    180.1 WSAB
    47.6 rWAR
    52.6 fWAR
    47.8 sWAR

    Previous results

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    Carlos Delgado vs Jim Rice
    Jim Rice vs Lou Brock
    20
    Jason Giambi
    35.00%
    7
    Jim Rice
    65.00%
    13

    The poll is expired.

    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  • #2
    Giambi has the better numbers. But in a way (or two) I think Rice was the greater player. For one by the age Giambi became a regular, Rice was already a perennial MVP candiate. Rice of course was done by his early 30s whereas Giambi post mid 30s has still been productive in his own way. The second reason: Rice was a flesh and blood ball player whereas Giambi was a pharmaceutical lab creation. So if you were starting in a non PED era and selected Rice you would have an above average to fearsome hitter. If you took Giambi you would have maybe the 24 year old rookie with this slash line: 256/364/398 in 210 PA. So I took Rice though the lines of type tell me otherwise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Although I think Rice is overrated, I give Jim Rice the victory here. I have no idea how a clean Giambi would have done. Giambi's numbers are better. But he's guilty of cheating.

      Comment


      • #4
        what is rWAR, fWAR and sWAR?

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm surprised Rice beat Brock in the last match, given the backlash that home run hitters are getting these days.

          Giving Giambi a steroid discount, I think Rice beats him. Giambi's hanging around while Rice had the good sense not to do that when he crashed.
          46 wins to match last year's total

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brett View Post
            what is rWAR, fWAR and sWAR?
            bbRef, Fangraphs, and Seamheads, who (just to be on the safe side) COMPARE RICE and GIAMBI differently.
            Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

            Comment


            • #7
              This one is Rice by far.

              Comment


              • #8
                Since neither player offered much in terms of value in the field or on the bases. Lets compare their OPS+ by age

                age...Rice...Giambi

                21...89...n/a
                22...128...n/a
                23...120...n/a
                24...147...107
                25...157...109
                26...154...126
                27...122...130
                28...117...153
                29...131...187
                30...141...199
                31...112...172
                32...123...148
                33...137...90
                34...101...161
                35...102...148
                36...70...107
                37...n/a...128
                38...n/a...92
                39...n/a...98
                40...n/a...140
                41...n/a...74

                So much is made of Rice's peak from 1977-79. However Giambi's peak was far greater from 2000-02
                My dream ballpark dimensions
                LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                Location....San Diego

                Comment


                • #9
                  Guess who I voted for :hyper:
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
                    So much is made of Rice's peak from 1977-79. However Giambi's peak was far greater from 2000-02
                    But no one trusts Giambi's numbers from those years because of steroids. Given the "discount", that means Rice is better.
                    46 wins to match last year's total

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                      But no one trusts Giambi's numbers from those years because of steroids. Given the "discount", that means Rice is better.
                      but how big is the "discount"?
                      My top 10 players:

                      1. Babe Ruth
                      2. Barry Bonds
                      3. Ty Cobb
                      4. Ted Williams
                      5. Willie Mays
                      6. Alex Rodriguez
                      7. Hank Aaron
                      8. Honus Wagner
                      9. Lou Gehrig
                      10. Mickey Mantle

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                        but how big is the "discount"?
                        George Eliot says prediction is the most gratuitous source of error, but I am afraid we will never know. I'm going to sit this one out as I don't feel remotely competent.

                        I did take a look at 24-year-old rookies with similar slash lines, particularly PA, OB, SLG, and the results were not impressive: Joe Kuhel and Brett Butler stuck out. Earl Averill was in there, but the wrong one. I didn't see anyone who would come close to Rice. Not that 210 PA are enough to decide anything. It's being a rookie at 24 that raises doubts for me.

                        Of all position players in the hall of fame, the only rookies 24 or older who weren't obviously way overdue are Bill Terry and Earl Combs. Beauty Bancroft had a slash line similar to Giambi's, but that was in over 600 PA, in 1915, and he was a shortstop who got in for his fielding, so, no real comp there.
                        Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 01-03-2013, 05:14 PM.
                        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Incredibly close

                          Using FanGraph's Value ratings
                          Giambi was worth 40.9 runs per 650 PA's
                          Rice was worth 40.2 runs per 650 PA's

                          We'll call that a wash


                          If we cut off the ends of both guys' careers to eliminate 'hanging on'
                          Giambi 98-08: 486 RAR, 6380 PA or 49.5 runs per 650 PA
                          Rice 75-86: 519 RAR, 7754 PA or 43.5 runs per 650 PA

                          Still very close. Rice's was longer but Giambi's was bigger.


                          In a case this close I'll go to WPA
                          Giambi has a commanding lead 46.6 wins to 22.7 for Rice.

                          If we look at another 'tie-breaker', playoff performance, Giambi also has an advantage
                          Giambi: 45 games, 174 PA, 145 wRC+
                          Rice: 18 games, 80 PA, 85 wRC+


                          By the absolute slimmest of margins, I'll take Giambi.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rice is one of the most hated men (in regards to his performance) on this board. The only reason that he beat Brock is because Brock is even more defiled here, despite being a first ballot HOFer (I know we're "smarter" now.)

                            Let’s look at something that I like, 11 year peak season averages;

                            Rice 1975-85 ( age 22-32) 146 g, 91 r, 26 2b, 6 3b, 30 hr 106 RBI, .302/.353/.523, OPS+ 133, 306 TB

                            Giambi 1998-2008 (age 27-37) 138 g, 85 r, 25 2b, 1 3b, 32 hr, 99 RBI, .286/.419/.548 OPS+ 153 254 TB

                            About all Giambi does better is his OBP. Rice plays more, hits higher, and scores and bats in more runs. In the Bizarro world, a team of Giambis would defeat a team of Rices, without those inconvenient teammates. However, I like Rice’s hitting more, although it’s very close.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                              Rice is one of the most hated men (in regards to his performance) on this board. The only reason that he beat Brock is because Brock is even more defiled here, despite being a first ballot HOFer (I know we're "smarter" now.)

                              Let’s look at something that I like, 11 year peak season averages;

                              Rice 1975-85 ( age 22-32) 146 g, 91 r, 26 2b, 6 3b, 30 hr 106 RBI, .302/.353/.523, OPS+ 133, 306 TB

                              Giambi 1998-2008 (age 27-37) 138 g, 85 r, 25 2b, 1 3b, 32 hr, 99 RBI, .286/.419/.548 OPS+ 153 254 TB

                              About all Giambi does better is his OBP. Rice plays more, hits higher, and scores and bats in more runs. In the Bizarro world, a team of Giambis would defeat a team of Rices, without those inconvenient teammates. However, I like Rice’s hitting more, although it’s very close.
                              How about outs? How many outs does each guy make? That may be important

                              Comment

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