Best fielding First Baseman ever REVISED

[JR Hart]

Thanks for the feedback regarding this topic. I have listened to you and deleted the original poll and now submitt this revision. I feel that fielding ratings are still somewhat subjective and love the feedback and polling results.

Here are your choices. Because I increased the number, you may now vote for as many as 4 1B. Who is the Liberace of the Leather?

Albert Pujols
Bill Terry
Bill White
Dolf Camilli
Don Mattingly
Frank Chance
George Scott
George Sisler
Gil Hodges
Hal Chase
Jake Daubert
John Olerud
JT Snow
Keith Hernandez
Mark Grace
Mark Teixeira
Todd Helton
Vic Power
Wes Parker
Will Clark

enjoy

[brett]

Keith Hernandez #1 and Todd Helton #2.

[brett]

Here is Matt Souders' (SABRMatt's) PCA list.

On to first base!

1: Keith Hernandez - Not really exciting to see Hernandez at the top again...but here he is. I don't frankly think there's any argument that can change this pick. There's just no getting around it...Keith Hernandez was magnificent with the glove and held his peak for longer than anyone in history. Look at this line:


2: Pete O'Brien - Now before you overreact to this not being a name you're familiar with - you should know that O'Brien lost his major league job because he stopped hitting, not because he failed in the field. A tragic example of a man playing a non-skill position outstandingly well and losing half his career to noodle-bat syndrome. Check out this career:



3: Roger Connor - For a while there, he was second on my list, but with the invention of the GI method, I found a better balance between longevity and peak performance and Connor slipped below the short but sweet career of O'Brien. In any event, Connor is underappreciated here, and often overlooked by his contemporaries in favor of Hal Chase, the world famous thrower of games.

4: Todd Helton - Through 2005, Helton was actually only 6th all time, but there's little evidence that he's slowed down much on defense since 2005 and that bumps him up ahead of Tony Perez for the 4 slot. Even now, Helotn is often credited for helping Troy Tulowitsky get his error rate down.

5: Tony Perez - A major part of the Big Red Machine, Perez glued that infield of misfits together and, for example, cut Joe Morgan's error rate significantly in the first couple of years of his reign in Cincinnati before he started losing his skills.

6: Harry Stovey - Stovey was in the AA what Connor was in the NL. The league's dominant defensive first baseman. Of course, Stovey was also very speedy and legged out a lot of triples and home runs. I've seen descriptions of him that call him one of the most flexible and speedy players of the 1880s. It's only logical that he should have been a great fielder.

7: Joe Kuhel - Here's a guy who shouldn't have stuck aroud as long as he did if you're looking only at his bat...but who kept getting work because of his glove. That career OPS+ of 104 looks better than it was...he had huge swings up and down from year to year but never managed to be a significant run producer aside from a sprinkling of 4 seasons non-consecutively through his career.

8: John Olerud - As a Mariner fan, I get a smile seeing Olerud this high on my list. "O-LE! O-LE O-LE O-LE! OOOOOOOH-LEEEEE! O-LE!" Those were the good years....*sigh* Dude was a magician with the glove and one of the toughest outs in baseball. He's got a shot at the hall of fame if the voters are fair.

9: George Kelly - 109 OPS+ from a first baseman who made the hall of fame. What do YOU suppose happened?

10: Mark Grace - Any Cubs fans in the house? You know he belongs here.

11: Vic Power
12: Fred Tenney
13: Bill Terry - A concession based on the consensus view that his defense was all-time elite.
14: Jimmie Foxx
15: George Sisler - Another concession based on compensating for his injury. I can't place him anywhere near as high as Bill_Burgess does because before the injury he didn't rate as all that great a fielder...a very good one, but it would have taken him scoring 4+ wins a few times to crack my top 10. He never got that good.

[White Knight]

Still no Doug Mientkiewicz.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Here is Matt Souders' (SABRMatt's) PCA list.

On to first base!

.

Of course this list is years old. A lot of playing time for Pujols, Helton, etc. has occurred, and defensive metrics themselves have had big shifts.

Also fwiw, Helton is ranked worse than Pujols according to UZR, Total Zone, Plus/minus (DRS), Michael Humphries Defensive Runs, and by the the fans on Tango's Fan Scouting Report. By quite a bit in several cases.

Is there something all Coors Fieldy that all of the metrics and observers are missing?

My vote was for Hernandez, by the way.

[brett]

Of course this list is years old. A lot of playing time for Pujols, Helton, etc. has occurred, and defensive metrics themselves have had big shifts.

Also fwiw, Helton is ranked worse than Pujols according to UZR, Total Zone, Plus/minus (DRS), Michael Humphries Defensive Runs, and by the the fans on Tango's Fan Scouting Report. By quite a bit in several cases.

Is there something all Coors Fieldy that all of the metrics and observers are missing?

My vote was for Hernandez, by the way.

Pujols is 108 in TZ and Helton 104 (with a third more playing time) so they are both in the 100 runs saved ballpark. That is a pretty small difference. Even the difference between a +50 and +100 fielder may not be that big, but it looks big because the baseline is set at an average player.

Coors does have an effect though because of a significantly higher on-base percentage there. Coors has produced about a 60 point higher on base percentage than an average park. I'm estimating from years that I know about, but with a league OB% of about .330, Coors has produced something like .400. Even over half time, that means that a first baseman has to hold a runner on in about 1 out of 20 extra plate appearances than if he played at home in another park.

Also, I have seen numbers on balls in the dirt picked up by Helton, and it is extremely high. He is known for it, but total putouts have a limited effect in most metrics.

And lastly I have watched them both play. In '09, Helton made 3 errors, and ALL 3 were the result of him making an exceptional play and the second baseman being late to cover on a forceout (3 bunts as I recall, all three throws spot on).

I guess I'll just say that Helton looks a little better to me, and I think statistically they are probably outside the limits of the metrics. Over 15 or 20K chances, 50 runs saved may be fewer than 1% of total plays. If I see 100 RS versus 50, then that's probably significant. I may have to look at what makes Pujols particularly good on defense. Range? Arm?

[scribe114]

Frank McCormick anyone?

[Bothrops Atrox]

Pujols is 108 in TZ and Helton 104 (with a third more playing time) so they are both in the 100 runs saved ballpark. That is a pretty small difference. Even the difference between a +50 and +100 fielder may not be that big, but it looks big because the baseline is set at an average player.

Coors does have an effect though because of a significantly higher on-base percentage there. Coors has produced about a 60 point higher on base percentage than an average park. I'm estimating from years that I know about, but with a league OB% of about .330, Coors has produced something like .400. Even over half time, that means that a first baseman has to hold a runner on in about 1 out of 20 extra plate appearances than if he played at home in another park.

Also, I have seen numbers on balls in the dirt picked up by Helton, and it is extremely high. He is known for it, but total putouts have a limited effect in most metrics.

And lastly I have watched them both play. In '09, Helton made 3 errors, and ALL 3 were the result of him making an exceptional play and the second baseman being late to cover on a forceout (3 bunts as I recall, all three throws spot on).

I guess I'll just say that Helton looks a little better to me, and I think statistically they are probably outside the limits of the metrics. Over 15 or 20K chances, 50 runs saved may be fewer than 1% of total plays. If I see 100 RS versus 50, then that's probably significant. I may have to look at what makes Pujols particularly good on defense. Range? Arm?

UZR has Pujols ahead 79 to 27 since 2002. DRA has Pujols ahead 175 to 128. DRS has Pujols ahead 130 to 31. The Fans Scouting Report from Tango Tiger has ranked Pujols higher 7/8 seasons. Of course many of these shave several really good seasons off of Helton's totals, but I am not sure he catches Pujols in any of the metrics regardless.

As far as what I have seen from Pujols - his range to his left was amazing. He was very good at scooping too. He was the single best I have ever seen at gunning down runners trying to advance bases. He pulled the type of thing he did vs. Utley in the 11 NLDS many times. Good, but not amazing to his right, which is what separates him from Hernandez. Very solid going back on popups.

I don't know why the perception of Pujols as amazing fielder is so hard for some to accept. It has to be his size and the type of hitter he is. It takes a lot to shake off the perception of slow, bulky, slugger can't field image. In his prime (2005-2009) he was about as good as Hernandez.

It should be noted that bbref has Pujols and Helton #2 and #3 all-time in defensive runs for 1B. The fact that Pujols isn't even on Matt's list should show how old it is.

[White Knight]

I don't know why the perception of Pujols as amazing fielder is so hard for some to accept. It has to be his size and the type of hitter he is. It takes a lot to shake off the perception of slow, bulky, slugger can't field image. In his prime (2005-2009) he was about as good as Hernandez.

Maybe it's because I haven't seen as much of him as you have, but I've never been that impressed with his glove. Just watching him with the naked eye, I have never seen that "wow, just wow!" status like I've seen with Hernandez, Mattingly, Clark, Tex, and Mientkiewicz.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Maybe it's because I haven't seen as much of him as you have, but I've never been that impressed with his glove. Just watching him with the naked eye, I have never seen that "wow, just wow!" status like I've seen with Hernandez, Mattingly, Clark, Tex, and Mientkiewicz.

My eyewitness bias is justified by all of the defensive metrics, the GGs he has won, and the Fans Scouting report. I am not sweating one person's opinion, who also happens passionately to not want anybody to think he is as good as McGwire or Gehrig.

He is just good now, but he was very "wow" from 2005-2009. Keep in mind, he played a very solid 3B for a season and was a good SS in college. I promise you, if he had a smaller frame, the few skeptics would think differently.

[White Knight]

My eyewitness bias is justified by all of the defensive metrics, the GGs he has won, and the Fans Scouting report. I am not sweating one person's opinion, who also happens passionately to not want anybody to think he is as good as McGwire or Gehrig.

He is just good now, but he was very "wow" from 2005-2009. Keep in mind, he played a very solid 3B for a season and was a good SS in college. I promise you, if he had a smaller frame, the few skeptics would think differently.

He's never be as good as Gehrig, but I do not believe Mac is better, nor did I ever say that. That's another story though, we're talking with the glove here. I also didn't say you were biased, but I do think many here rely too much on just stats. If you were just watching him with your own eye, would you be just as impressed? Or is he so good he doesn't have to have flash like Tex?

[Bothrops Atrox]

He's never be as good as Gehrig, but I do not believe Mac is better, nor did I ever say that. That's another story though, we're talking with the glove here. I also didn't say you were biased, but I do think many here rely too much on just stats. If you were just watching him with your own eye, would you be just as impressed? Or is he so good he doesn't have to have flash like Tex?

I just told you what I have seen that makes me so impressed. And like I said, Pujols has finished 1st overall in the Fans Scouting Report since its inception (1st most seasons), which sole purpose is to rank a large sample size of fans' eyewitness testimonies.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Coors does have an effect though because of a significantly higher on-base percentage there. . . . Even over half time, that means that a first baseman has to hold a runner on in about 1 out of 20 extra plate appearances than if he played at home in another park.

Very shrewd observation. I know BBREF tabulates PA and GBIP%, so I presume that goes into the zone ratings too, and if OBA is high, obviously O/PA is low for everybody.

Also, I have seen numbers on balls in the dirt picked up by Helton, and it is extremely high. He is known for it, but total putouts have a limited effect in most metrics.

Again, for first basemen, BBREF separates unassisted 1B PO and tag plays from the routine ones, which they call force out PO. I don't know how much weight this gets, however.

I know that UZR is proprietary, but are the others?

Does anyone know where to find at least lists of components for the zone ratings?

[KHenry14]

It's Hernandez easily. The most aggressive 1B defensively i've ever seen, throwing runners out on bunts on the 3rd base side of the mound. Just incredible.

The only other players I've seen who could come close would be Wes Parker and JT Snow. Wes was terrific, and JT was magical, and both of them are somewhat underrated. Don't know why though...

[Second Base Coach]

Hal Chase of course...

Sometimes a raw recruit in spring is not a pitching find;
He has not Walter Johnson's wing, nor Matty's wonderous mind.
He does not act like Harold Chase upon the fielding job,
But you may find in such a case, he hits like Tyrus Cobb.