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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    The winter 2013 issue of Civil War Monitor has an article about baseball in the Civil War.

    http://www.civilwarmonitor.com/table-of-contents/i10

    I've only had a chance to scan the actual in-print article, but it does mention a New York Times piece. I think this is it.

    http://www.opinionator.blogs.nytimes...ind-bars/?_r=0

    Leave a comment:


  • Tyrus4189Cobb
    replied
    Originally posted by Cap78 View Post
    This needs to be the Post of the Day
    Much obliged

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr28
    replied
    Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
    Except "the day" was almost a year ago. But a worthy post, nonetheless.
    Perhaps we should elect a committee to look over all the entries into the "Post of the Day" thread throughout the year, then select some to vote on. When we have our annual winner, HWR can present a digital trophy! It'll be our own baseball-fever Post Awards online banquet and presentation! We can pretend we are all gussied up even.

    Leave a comment:


  • ol' aches and pains
    replied
    Originally posted by Cap78 View Post
    This needs to be the Post of the Day
    Except "the day" was almost a year ago. But a worthy post, nonetheless.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cap78
    replied
    Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Thorn's Baseball in The Garden of Eden, a dry read, goes in depth with the origins of baseball. Not just the National Association, Knickerbockers, and 1869 Cincinnati club, but also its transition as an English ball-and-bat activity to the Americas. Around the time the Knickerbockers and subsequent organizations were developing (1850s), baseball's influence remained mostly a New England game (primarily New York). The Civil War, for all of its atrocities, may have helped the game reach the further portions of the nation. The game was probably reported through newspapers and word-of-mouth beyond New England, to which people would regard it as a variant of cricket. Actually seeing Union soldiers play would theoretically materialize Southerners' familiarity (if any) with the rules.

    In the Civil War's beginnings, POWs received rather decent treatment as captives. As war politics/propaganda began stirring emotions and the bloody tolls grew on people, prison camps on both sides became nothing short of a concentration camp. Rampant disease obliterated thousands of POWs existing in subhuman conditions. Each side became very hostile towards each other, so I don't see games occurring between sides (outside of a POW camp) after the Battle of Gettysburg when camps started transforming to very miserable places. In fact, the documented games trail of significantly after April 1863. The only post-1863 "inter-army" game I found came immediately after the surrender at Appomatox, where both weary sides came together for a game. It wasn't a secret that the South was losing, so both sides probably had a sense of the war ending for some time.

    Before this time, POWs didn't have it so bad. In fact, they occasionally left the camps for limited town trips. This would enable Confederate POWs being held by Northerners (many from NY) to learn baseball. Prison guards encouraged games be played to keep everyone, guards and prisoners, in higher spirits. In a war full of divisions such as rich and poor, North and South, soldier and officer, brother vs brother, baseball relieved the tensions for a short while and brought upon these men the very thing the Civil War has been recognized for: equality. This lithograph, created by a Union captain, depicts Union and Confederate POWs playing baseball

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]119591[/ATTACH]

    Southerners also witnessed games from marching Union soldiers or armies that overtook their lands. However, documentation shows that baseball remained mostly a Northern sport in the Civil War, though the war definitely planted its seeds in the South. As I mentioned, however, I did not find any specific events of sides playing before battles. Each side kept to itself, and maybe organized games before battles WITHIN themselves (i.e. Union battery vs. Union regiment). The only place I know where you could find details on your belief of "moonlight battles" would be this book. However, one of my sources quotes the book and there's no mention of such a notion.

    As for rules, mesozoic baseball rules can be found through Google.

    My sources:
    Smithsonian Blog
    Baseball Almanac
    Baseball in The Garden of Eden by John Thorne
    Missouri Civil War Museum
    Old Time Baseball by Harvey Frommer
    SABR
    My knowledge of baseball, The Civil War, and how both interacted
    This needs to be the Post of the Day

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
    ^ I can't believe anyone fell for Bill Stern's story about Lincoln telling Doubleday that on his death bead [and thus being conscious]. Lincoln got shot with a .44 derringer point blank. You don't come back from that.
    It was the dramatic music Stern used. It got me every time.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    There have been at least two books written about baseball during the Civil War. The one I read last year documented which regiments played games year by year. During the playing of one game the opposing troops attacked and killed the centerfielder and wounded another player.

    I don't have titles but it should be easy to google.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    ^ I can't believe anyone fell for Bill Stern's story about Lincoln telling Doubleday that on his death bead [and thus being conscious]. Lincoln got shot with a .44 derringer point blank. You don't come back from that.

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • bmeehl
    replied
    Thanks much for the post and the Baseball in the Blue and Gray referral. Re fraternizing Yanks and rebels there was a great Union vs. Confederate battle of the bands one night (Dec. 30, 1862) before the Battle of Murfreesboro (Tenn.) which ended with both bands joining in to play "Home Sweet Home."

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    As far as I am aware there was no ballplaying between Johnny Rebs and Billy Yanks during the war, even in prison camps.

    I know of one account where a couple of Union soldiers in uniform from a PA unit were playing ball in Baltimore. I believe they were members of the Philadelphia Athletics. Don't have the specifics at this moment but it's here: baseballhistoryblog.com

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    You're quite welcome. Yes it is from the Salisbury Confederate Prison in NC, orginally created by Captain Otto Botticher. I don't know where the original is now (from your context the one in Columbus is only a copy?)
    To be honest with you I'm not quite sure, but it likely is. There is a decent permanent Civil War exhibit there, mostly consisting of flags. There's a ongoing major flag restoration project. I'll look closer at whether the litohgraph is denoted as original or a copy the next time I visit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tyrus4189Cobb
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
    The lithograph is from Salisbury, North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken. They have one hanging up at the Ohio Historical Center in Columbus.

    Excellent research. Thanks.
    You're quite welcome. Yes it is from the Salisbury Confederate Prison in NC, orginally created by Captain Otto Botticher. I don't know where the original is now (from your context the one in Columbus is only a copy?)

    Not to veer too far from baseball, but I think camps equated to modern day white-collar prisons in the war's beginning because POWs were seen as merely doing their duty. It wasn't until people became bitter through bloody campaigns, propaganda, and general prejudices of the day that POWs were regarded as part of the fault for the other side's injustices. Just a hyptothesis.

    Anyway, the bitterness halted baseball between the sides, leaving negative feelings that would continue North vs. South animosity in baseball into the late 1910s (see 1912 Red Sox).
    Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 01-30-2013, 09:58 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Thorn's Baseball in The Garden of Eden, a dry read, goes in depth with the origins of baseball. Not just the National Association, Knickerbockers, and 1869 Cincinnati club, but also its transition as an English ball-and-bat activity to the Americas. Around the time the Knickerbockers and subsequent organizations were developing (1850s), baseball's influence remained mostly a New England game (primarily New York). The Civil War, for all of its atrocities, may have helped the game reach the further portions of the nation. The game was probably reported through newspapers and word-of-mouth beyond New England, to which people would see it as a variant of cricket. Actually seeing Union soldiers play would theoretically materialize Southerners' familiarity (if any) with the rules.

    In the Civil War's beginnings, POWs received rather decent treatment as captives. As war politics/propaganda began stirring emotions and the bloody tolls grew on people, prison camps on both sides became nothing short of a concentration camp. Rampant disease obliterated thousands of POWs existing in subhuman conditions. Each side became very hostile towards each other, so I don't see games occurring between sides (outside of a POW camp) after the Battle of Gettysburg when camps started transforming to very miserable places. In fact, the documented games trail of significantly after April 1863. The only post-1863 "inter-army" game I found came immediately after the surrender at Appomatox, where both weary sides came together for a game. It wasn't a secret that the South was losing, so both sides probably had a sense of the war ending for some time.

    Before this time, POWs didn't have it so bad. In fact, they occasionally left the camps for limited town trips. This would enable Confederate POWs being held by Northerners (many from NY) to learn baseball. Prison guards encouraged games be played to keep everyone, guards and prisoners, in higher spirits. In a war full of divisions such as rich and poor, North and South, soldier and officer, brother vs brother, baseball relieved the tensions for a short while and brought upon these men the very thing the Civil War has been recognized for: equality. This lithograph, created by a Union captain, depicts Union and Confederate POWs playing baseball

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]119591[/ATTACH]

    Southerners also witnessed games from marching Union soldiers or armies that overtook their lands. However, documentation shows that baseball remained mostly a Northern sport in the Civil War, though the war definitely planted its seeds in the South. As I mentioned, however, I did not find any specific events of sides playing before battles. Each side kept to itself, and maybe organized games before battles WITHIN themselves (i.e. Union battery vs. Union regiment). The only place I know where you could find details on your belief of "moonlight battles" would be this book. However, one of my sources quotes the book and there's no mention of such a notion.

    As for rules, mesozoic baseball rules can be found through Google.

    My sources:
    Smithsonian Blog
    Baseball Almanac
    Baseball in The Garden of Eden by John Thorne
    Missouri Civil War Museum
    Old Time Baseball by Harvey Frommer
    SABR
    My knowledge of baseball, The Civil War, and how both interacted
    The lithograph is from Salisbury, North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken. They have one hanging up at the Ohio Historical Center in Columbus.

    Excellent research. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tyrus4189Cobb
    replied
    Thorn's Baseball in The Garden of Eden, a dry read, goes in depth with the origins of baseball. Not just the National Association, Knickerbockers, and 1869 Cincinnati club, but also its transition as an English ball-and-bat activity to the Americas. Around the time the Knickerbockers and subsequent organizations were developing (1850s), baseball's influence remained mostly a New England game (primarily New York). The Civil War, for all of its atrocities, may have helped the game reach the further portions of the nation. The game was probably reported through newspapers and word-of-mouth beyond New England, to which people would regard it as a variant of cricket. Actually seeing Union soldiers play would theoretically materialize Southerners' familiarity (if any) with the rules.

    In the Civil War's beginnings, POWs received rather decent treatment as captives. As war politics/propaganda began stirring emotions and the bloody tolls grew on people, prison camps on both sides became nothing short of a concentration camp. Rampant disease obliterated thousands of POWs existing in subhuman conditions. Each side became very hostile towards each other, so I don't see games occurring between sides (outside of a POW camp) after the Battle of Gettysburg when camps started transforming to very miserable places. In fact, the documented games trail of significantly after April 1863. The only post-1863 "inter-army" game I found came immediately after the surrender at Appomatox, where both weary sides came together for a game. It wasn't a secret that the South was losing, so both sides probably had a sense of the war ending for some time.

    Before this time, POWs didn't have it so bad. In fact, they occasionally left the camps for limited town trips. This would enable Confederate POWs being held by Northerners (many from NY) to learn baseball. Prison guards encouraged games be played to keep everyone, guards and prisoners, in higher spirits. In a war full of divisions such as rich and poor, North and South, soldier and officer, brother vs brother, baseball relieved the tensions for a short while and brought upon these men the very thing the Civil War has been recognized for: equality. This lithograph, created by a Union captain, depicts Union and Confederate POWs playing baseball

    civil_war_baseball_1863_poster-ra991c18d2e314d2792713abbc0a75168_aisrs_400.jpg

    Southerners also witnessed games from marching Union soldiers or armies that overtook their lands. However, documentation shows that baseball remained mostly a Northern sport in the Civil War, though the war definitely planted its seeds in the South. As I mentioned, however, I did not find any specific events of sides playing before battles. Each side kept to itself, and maybe organized games before battles WITHIN themselves (i.e. Union battery vs. Union regiment). The only place I know where you could find details on your belief of "moonlight battles" would be this book. However, one of my sources quotes the book and there's no mention of such a notion.

    As for rules, mesozoic baseball rules can be found through Google.

    My sources:
    Smithsonian Blog
    Baseball Almanac
    Baseball in The Garden of Eden by John Thorne
    Missouri Civil War Museum
    Old Time Baseball by Harvey Frommer
    SABR
    My knowledge of baseball, The Civil War, and how both interacted
    Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 01-30-2013, 09:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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