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Pinson, Oliver or Anderson?

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    If I remember accurately, he was portrayed as a younger brother to Frank Robinson. Pinson's breakout in 59 was only 3 years behind Frank, but Frank was an well-established star by then. I think Clemente actually broke in before Robinson, but his breakout was in 58, so he and Pinson seemed more nearly peers. This is pretty much hair splitting, but I was 9 in 55 and 16 in 62, so these little intervals were much bigger to me then. Mays, Mantle > Aaron, Robinson > Clemente, Pinson, Cepeda was how it seemed to me, but someone born a few years earlier might see it differently. None of these differences was great, and they all decreased as time went on.

    Pinson's walk-up music, by the way, was "Show me the Vada Go Home."
    Thanks Dave

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  • TomBodet
    replied
    I was on Pinson needles wondering about that. Oliver time. If you Garret all about these guys you would, too.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    Pinson is a personal favorite from early baseball card days. What can I say I was drawn to the, what seemed to me, cool names and big numbers on the back. Other than that I can't add anything that hasn't been said already. One question if there is anyone who was around then. Was Vada considered part of the next class of OF after Aaron, Mays, Robinson, and maybe Clemente, in the NL from the late 50s to mid 60s?
    If I remember accurately, he was portrayed as a younger brother to Frank Robinson. Pinson's breakout in 59 was only 3 years behind Frank, but Frank was an well-established star by then. I think Clemente actually broke in before Robinson, but his breakout was in 58, so he and Pinson seemed more nearly peers. This is pretty much hair splitting, but I was 9 in 55 and 16 in 62, so these little intervals were much bigger to me then. Mays, Mantle > Aaron, Robinson > Clemente, Pinson, Cepeda was how it seemed to me, but someone born a few years earlier might see it differently. None of these differences was great, and they all decreased as time went on.

    Pinson's walk-up music, by the way, was "Show me the Vada Go Home."
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 01-14-2013, 05:17 PM.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Pinson is a personal favorite from early baseball card days. What can I say I was drawn to the, what seemed to me, cool names and big numbers on the back. Other than that I can't add anything that hasn't been said already. One question if there is anyone who was around then. Was Vada considered part of the next class of OF after Aaron, Mays, Robinson, and maybe Clemente, in the NL from the late 50s to mid 60s?

    Leave a comment:


  • toomanyhatz
    replied
    I give Pinson the edge for all-around play. Pretty close offensively, as others have said, with Pinson gaining a slight edge in speed and a large edge in defense. Plus, at least for the most part, he played in an era of less offense. (Although the couple years of Frank Robinson in the lineup with him probably helped more than Oliver's years with Stargell.)

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Muncus Agruncus View Post
    I never saw Pinson play, but my father liked him. At baseball reference he was compared to Oliver and Anderson. Hence, the poll. Just trying to gain a better understanding of what type of players he is similar to.
    By the numbers, he seems overall pretty similar to Johnny Damon, except with a different career path. he did have a couple of years that were better than anything Damon did, so he is probably a tad better.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrangelove
    replied
    Pinson was a much better player.

    Through age 28 he had 44 WAR. At that age, comparable to Yaz, 5 more than Reggie Jackson, 7 less than Kaline, 17 more than both Clemente and Molitor.

    Compared to all players in history through age 28 (when he was 28) he was:

    WAR 20th
    games 3rd
    at bats 1st
    hits 3rd
    runs 9th (since 1901)
    1b 7th
    2b 2nd (tied)
    3b 15th
    rbi 24th
    total bases 5th

    It's a shame, but he fell off the map after 28. While some players put up 2 or 3 stellar years between 29 and 35, and perhaps a couple good ones, he was all but pedestrian after 1967.

    Al Oliver is not imo in the same class as Pinson. He was a compiler and had only one season that was remarkable. Between 1959-65, Pinson put up 5 seasons of between 5.2 and 7.2 WAR each. Oliver's 3 best career seasons were 5.0, 4.6 and 4.0.

    Anderson is totally not in the same class.
    Last edited by drstrangelove; 01-13-2013, 06:57 PM.

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  • BigRon
    replied
    Pinson was an outstanding player when young. If he had been able to keep up his early career pace for 4-5 years longer than he did, he'd probably be in the HOF. But, he declined fairly early, though he remained a pretty good player for a long time. He was very fast early in his career, and a pretty decent CFer.

    Oliver was a fine hitter, a versatile guy on defense, though not exceptional. He aged very well. I saw them both play a lot, Oliver more than Pinson. At his best, Pinson was the better player, but Oliver played well a bit longer. I give him the slightest of edges.

    Anderson was a good player but a notch below the other two.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ben Grimm
    replied
    Pinson's one of those players I wish I was old enough to see. By the time I got into the game, he was ending his career and rarely did I get to see AL games other than the Yankees or Sox on Saturdays. I love power/speed players and he was one of the better ones during his era.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Muncus Agruncus View Post
    I never saw Pinson play, but my father liked him. At baseball reference he was compared to Oliver and Anderson. Hence, the poll. Just trying to gain a better understanding of what type of players he is similar to.
    The poll provides some insight into how BBREF selects "similar players." Differences in league offense do not matter. Except for position played, defensive capacity does not matter. batting average matters a lot. Relative scores like WAR and OPS+ don't matter. If you click on the tab, you'll get a breakdown of the player's and his similars' stats, including WAR and OPS. the disparities are often very interesting.

    This was an important poll.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    Not this again. Doesn't matter how many times this is explained...
    Sorry, Matthew, I can't help it. It's an occupational disease.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muncus Agruncus
    replied
    I never saw Pinson play, but my father liked him. At baseball reference he was compared to Oliver and Anderson. Hence, the poll. Just trying to gain a better understanding of what type of players he is similar to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post

    As BBREF points out in both its popups, WAR is not the sum of oWAR and dWAR.
    Not this again. Doesn't matter how many times this is explained...

    Leave a comment:


  • TomBodet
    replied
    Ummmm, Pinson. Always thought he was horribly overlooked. Oliver we all know. Anderson i think deserves respect too: he was pretty good if not Hof.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I picked Pinson, but looking at the stats again, I would probably pick Oliver. He aged MUCH better than Pinson, and actually had his best season at age 35. From age 27-35, Pinson had just a 103 OPS+, while Oliver had a 131 OPS+ during the same age span. Oddly, Pnson has much more offensive WAR that Oliver, despite Oliver being the much better hitter.
    That's because Offensive WAR counts everything but defensive runs: Pinson has a hundred point edge in position WAR (because Oliver wound up at first base) and replacement WAR, because Pinson played more: a 46-run edge in position, a 54-run edge in replacement value.

    As BBREF points out in both its popups, WAR is not the sum of oWAR and dWAR.

    Leave a comment:

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