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90's Dodgers, Wasted Talent: Why? How? Who?

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  • #16
    Oh, it's been mentioned. But I think the main reason no one's dwelled on it is that hindsight's always 20/20. As I remember it, no one at the time was particularly unhappy about it. The Dodgers knew Pedro would be good, they just didn't know how good. And DeShields, coming off a couple of great seasons, seemed like one of the best players in the game. The Dodgers desperately needed a leadoff hitter and a 2nd baseman, they thought DeShield fulfilled both. It was the old 'you've got to give something up to get something.' I think at the time people thought it would help both teams. They were half right.
    Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

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    • #17
      Speaking of which, anyone remember Jesus Martinez? Supposedly the hardest thrower of the three, but didn't last long because he lacked the command his brothers had.
      Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

      1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
        Oh, it's been mentioned. But I think the main reason no one's dwelled on it is that hindsight's always 20/20. As I remember it, no one at the time was particularly unhappy about it. The Dodgers knew Pedro would be good, they just didn't know how good. And DeShields, coming off a couple of great seasons, seemed like one of the best players in the game. The Dodgers desperately needed a leadoff hitter and a 2nd baseman, they thought DeShield fulfilled both. It was the old 'you've got to give something up to get something.' I think at the time people thought it would help both teams. They were half right.
        I remember my exact reaction upon hearing of the trade.

        "Dodgers trade for DeShields"
        Me: "Awesome...exactly the player we need...please don't let it be Pedro"
        "Going to the Expos, Pedro Martinez"
        Me: "Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!"

        I was in HS at the time, not a pro scout by any stretch, wasn't yet in to stat analysis but I lived in Albuquerque and watched Pedro and thought he was amazing. Of course it was cool that he was Ramon's brother.

        And I'm just reminiscing now

        Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
        Speaking of which, anyone remember Jesus Martinez? Supposedly the hardest thrower of the three, but didn't last long because he lacked the command his brothers had.
        Yes. I do remember Jesus. Haven't thought of him in a while. Wow. Yeah...of course I was pulling for a 3 Martinez rotation. Of course, it wasn't meant to be

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        • #19
          Unfortunately, we can make a similar comparison to the 2000-2012 Dodgers.


          Lots of players coming up through the system: Kemp, Kershaw, Billingsley, Ethier, Loney, Broxton, Cody Ross, Jayson Werth, Edwin Jackson and an incompetent GM and FO squandering their cost controlled years.
          Last edited by filihok; 01-24-2013, 02:04 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            Was Dodgers management that in love with Karros? I seem to remember Konerko didn't really get much of a chance in LA. I checked and he only got 166 career PA's with the Dodgers. Konerko tore up AAA, hitting .334/.415/.615 in 868 PA's. Granted, this was the PCL but you would think the Dodger scouts would have a solid handle on Konerko's overall skillset.
            This is a bit of a tangent, but Karros also ended up on the Board of Directors of a major semiconductor company because the founder/CEO had played at the same university and was an enthusiastic baseball player and fan for his whole life. This sweetheart deal for a man with no experience in business or the technology involved was not very well received by shareholders and the industry in general.
            "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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            • #21
              So in other words: the Dodgers decided to not come to Jesus, Mondesi was as bright as Pedro Guerrero, Karros got the Sam Malone treatment, and no one really knows why Konerko and Piazza didn't wind up making the Hall after spending 20 yrs each in Chavez Ravine.

              Oh and Delino didn't turn out to be Morgan.

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              • #22
                I have been a huge Dodger fan since the mid-1970s. That team during the Lasorda-Russell-Johnson years suffered from a lack of a lead off batter. The team tried and tried to develop one, and rented Brett Butler twice, and sacrificed Pedro Martinez once in order to find the right guy. It just never happened. Eric Young was there, but... Heck, even Rickey Henderson even made an appearance. Some other fun facts that ruined that team:

                1. Roger Cedeno never panned out in the field or as the lead off man they needed. They also had Eric Young, but they kept the wrong guy.

                2. They never could get a good hitting left fielder and a good hitting catcher on the team at the same time.

                3. The third baseman often had a better OBP than the middle infielders. This is bad if you need your corner infielders to hit three run homers and they never seemed to have two guys on base at the same time.

                4. Bill Russell was a better player than manager

                5. Paul Konerko came up at the same time as Karim Garcia and the coaches could not spot the better of the two players so they sent both away.

                6. None of the pitchers were heavy enough to last. Pedro Martinez was among these thin as rails throwers and was traded because he would bring back the most in return. It turns out he was worth more than Ismael Valdez and Pedro Astacio and Darren Dreifort combined.

                7. Darren Dreifort did not turn into Nolan Ryan. That sounds silly, but the team was counting on that, or nearly that.

                8. The Dodgers picked second in the draft that brought them Darren Dreifort. Alex Rodriguez went first. The team did get lucky by drafting Paul Konerko the following year, but see number five above.

                9. Billy Ashley did not turn into Frank Howard and Todd Hollandsworth did not get better as he got older.

                10. The collapse of the 1991 team and the subsequent headaches that went with Darryl Strawberry and Eric Davis really set this team up for failure for a long time. This squad was not built like the other Dodgers teams and the management in place was left wondering why their usual magic was not working.

                If you look at the only team that won 90 games in a season (the 1996 team) it was quite remarkable as there was a managerial change in the middle of the year and the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS rankings were down around 14th in the league. The players were good, but the offense was awful. The team would only outscore their opponents by maybe fifty runs a year over the course of the season.

                In 1997, four guys hit thirty home runs but no one else hit more than nine (Gagne). The next highest total was six!


                What should have happened was this:

                More three run homers and fewer solo shots would have been the result if they let Eric Young play second base for ten years.

                As Nomo and Martinez approached 30, Park and Valdez should have been backing them up a little better than they did. It's ok for everyone to be good at the same time you know!

                It's also critical that Ramon Martinez does not break down at the age of 30. Ismael Valdez needs to last past the age of 24

                Pedro Martinez leads the way over all those guys, allowing money to be freed up that did not go to the likes of Kevin Tapani and Tom Candiotti. Do you think we can afford a good left fielder now????

                Darren Dreifort should have been named the closer, and then taught how to do the job. He takes over for Todd Worrell when he gets to be too old for the job. This keeps the team from trading Konerko for Jeff Shaw.

                Paul Konerko learns to play third base and then later first base once Beltre comes along. I am sorry, but Karros does not become a Dodger legend under this scenario.

                The team knows the difference between Wilton Guerrero and Vlad Guerrero. They keep Vlad to play left field after talking him out of walking out of Dodgers' training camp.

                Mike Piazza stays and is allowed to catch, while Paul LoDuca grows into the best back-up catcher in baseball.

                They put Raul Mondesi on medication, early. This allows him to play center field when Shawn Green arrives.

                In the year 2000, the team would look like this, and have had more post season success than they did leading up to this season:

                C-Mike Piazza
                1B-Paul Konerko
                2B-Eric Young
                3B-Adrian Beltre
                SS-Alex Cora or someone else
                LF-Vlad Guerrero
                CF-Raul Mondesi
                RF-Shawn Green

                SP-Pedro Martinez, Ramon Martinez (not broken), Ismael Valdez (not broken), Chan Ho Park, and a free agent not named Kevin Brown because that money went to Piazza.

                RP-Darren Dreifort and a kid named Eric Gagne, Matt Herges, and Antonio Osuna (not broken)

                Sure, that's a lot of ifs and buts. I think the number one reason was the lack of table setters. Eric Young should have been a start on those Dodgers teams, but he was not. And every single pitcher was frail except for the older free agent pitchers who were signed to fill in the holes.
                Last edited by Second Base Coach; 01-29-2013, 08:52 PM.
                Your Second Base Coach
                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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                • #23
                  Actually what I remember is they likened Dreifort to Don Drysdale - a big pitcher who could hit

                  I saw Mondesi in a game in 1999

                  I was VERY unimpressed

                  every inning he walked from the dugout to his position in RF the entire way

                  and when the inning was over he walked the entire distance from right field to the third base dugout,, heck the next inning was always about to start

                  his body language was horrible, his facial expressions were bad, his colored overgrown wild hair was hideous, his hustle was non existant

                  I thought he was a cancer
                  1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                  2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                  3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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