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Why don't we ever see Hank Aaron listed #1 ?

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  • Calling Ruth Dunn is a Dunn thing to do. I like to think Mr Manush would do pretty well to, leaving out Ruth, Hornsby, etc. The idea that RUTH or Greenberg couldn't rake today is goofy. How about Yaz or Kaline who came up 50-60 yrs ago? Can't wait to hear the ingenius answers on This one....'Kaline would be Elvis Andrus'

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
      But again that only shows his greatness, swinging from the heels and at the same time beating 90+ percent of the game, at their own game, batting average.
      More than 90%. Here's where Ruth and Aaron ranked in league BA:
      Ruth:
      First- 1 time
      Second- 3 times
      Third- 2 times
      Fourth- 1 time
      Fifth- 1 time
      Seventh- 1 time
      Eighth- 3 times

      Aaron:
      First- 2 times
      Second- 1 time
      Third- 2 times
      Fourth- 2 times
      Fifth- 4 times
      Eighth- 1 time

      Awfully similar. Of course, Aaron played nearly 2/3 rds of his career in 10 or 12 team leagues, so he had more competitors for the tops spots, at least theoretically.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by willshad View Post
        How is the game more 'developed'?

        For me I would say primarily because the league as a whole was not filled with players capable, or ready to take maximum advantage of the live ball, or pitchers to optimally nullify the live ball. A league FULL of deadballers and a country full of kids who knew how to play the deadball game circa 1917 was not suddenly going to be filled with hitters and pitchers who would do the best with that implement.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by willshad View Post
          Sounds like you have him more on par with Frank Thomas as a hitter than with Thome.
          Personally I would have said Frank Thomas as a hitter, except that Thomas basically hit line drives that had enough on them to get out of a modern ballpark, and Thomas pretty much tried to hit everything to straight up the middle. Ruth I get the feel hit a lot more towering shots, and pulled the ball more. I honestly think Ruth, born on the same day as Thomas would have hit more home runs, but otherwise similar career percentages, but Ruth would have also been similar to Dwight Evans or Larry Walker in right field (or Pujols at first) and would have run a lot better than Thomas. And I'm not sure Ruth's averages would have peaked as high as Thomas' (I think he was .330 through 7 years) because Thomas faced the best strikeout pitchers of all time and still K'd less than 100 times per 162 games, but I think Ruth was less physically degraded by his 30s so he probably would have still been hitting .290-.325 in the second half of his career.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
            Assuming a normal decline, I see Ruth topping 800 HRs, but with only a .305 career avg.
            I am right on with this. BEST estimate, born and raised as a contemporary of Thome, or Thomas, Ruth hits 800 home runs, and I say that only because 900 would take too many things to not go wrong. Probably more fluctuation in batting average (and averages are 20 points lower today and gloves and specialized relievers are going to cut into that average, it is just a physical fact.).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by filihok View Post
              Pretty sure that no one's saying that JR.

              However, Aaron, for his career, managed .555 total bases per at bat [((1B+(2*2B)+(3*3B)+(4*HR))/AB]

              For each walk, Aaron averaged 1 total base.


              A walk is, generally, a better outcome than swinging the bat.
              I'm not sure how to to respond? This is mathmatics taken beyond the point of absurdity. A walk is but one outcome of a plate appearance. And striking out is worse than swinging the bat.

              Aaron is the all-time RBI and TB leader, would you rather have Eddie Stanky? He got on base more?
              This week's Giant

              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

              Comment


              • Originally posted by brett View Post
                For me I would say primarily because the league as a whole was not filled with players capable, or ready to take maximum advantage of the live ball, or pitchers to optimally nullify the live ball. A league FULL of deadballers and a country full of kids who knew how to play the deadball game circa 1917 was not suddenly going to be filled with hitters and pitchers who would do the best with that implement.
                I see what you're saying Brett. There were however, articles written early on about how the homerun was "ruining" the game. I have read quotes from players, Ruth's teammates included, who tried to take his approach and their numbers suffered. So they quickly abandoned that notion and went back to what they knew, and what the league valued...batting average and low strikeout totals. There were many who did take a somewhat "Ruthian" approach, changing bat types, and swinging more aggressive, but mainly with less than two strikes. As you can see by the K numbers below, they stayed steady, despite other numbers changing.

                The live ball and the rules changes that resulted from the Chapman incident, helped all hitters. Stubborn ones like Cobb and ones who picked their spots. The fact that nobody else possessed the ability of Ruth, namely, to contend for batting average crowns while out-homering entire teams, is not a knock on Ruth. Just the opposite in fact. I do not think Aaron had the ability to not sacrifice BA for power. He just wasn't that type of talent. I see him contending for BA crowns, striking out about 40-50 times a year, and putting up significant double and triple totals.

                Just for kicks I looked up some league numbers for different six year spans. A transition phase in the AL from 1917-1922 and the NL (to eliminate the DH factor) from 1998-2003. Really no surprises, just some info to look at, to view how the league approach was at the time. The approach of the hitters is dependent on the setup of the game. It has been much easier to hit home runs in this era, and that is the approach by nearly everyone, middle infielders and number 8 hitters. That is what makes it harder to stand out in power categories, not because the league is "tough" by any means.


                Code:
                -------AB/HR----AB/3b--PA/K
                
                1917 - 305.7 - 76.3 -  11.13
                1918 - 349.3 - 81.7 -  12.7
                1919 - 155.7 - 70.4 -  11.9
                1920 - 113.7 - 67.6 -  13.2
                1921 -  89.7 - 61.6 -  13.6
                1922 -  80.5 - 72.1 -  13.4
                
                1998 -  34.5 - 180.6 - 5.7
                1999 -  30.7 - 173.8 - 5.9
                2000 -  29.5 - 166.8 - 5.8
                2001 -  29.8 - 180.5 - 5.5
                2002 -  33.8 - 179.9 - 5.7
                2003 -  32.6 - 180.0 - 5.8
                Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-05-2013, 07:02 PM.
                "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                  I'm not sure how to to respond? This is mathmatics taken beyond the point of absurdity. A walk is but one outcome of a plate appearance. And striking out is worse than swinging the bat.

                  Aaron is the all-time RBI and TB leader, would you rather have Eddie Stanky? He got on base more?
                  Well, if you think swinging the bat averages a better outcome, just give everyone an intentional BB to prevent it.
                  Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                    More than 90%. Here's where Ruth and Aaron ranked in league BA:
                    Ruth:
                    First- 1 time
                    Second- 3 times
                    Third- 2 times
                    Fourth- 1 time
                    Fifth- 1 time
                    Seventh- 1 time
                    Eighth- 3 times

                    Aaron:
                    First- 2 times
                    Second- 1 time
                    Third- 2 times
                    Fourth- 2 times
                    Fifth- 4 times
                    Eighth- 1 time

                    Awfully similar. Of course, Aaron played nearly 2/3 rds of his career in 10 or 12 team leagues, so he had more competitors for the tops spots, at least theoretically.
                    Looking at league leads? One of Ruth's second place finishes is a .393, and that seventh place finish of .356 is one point higher than Hank's career high. Yeah I know, different era, but I think you missed Shoeless' point. Ruth was crushing everyone in slugging while also contending for batting titles year in and year out. Babe hitting .370+ six times in his era would not be very impressive, if he wasn't swinging from his heels and dominating in slugging.
                    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                      Well, if you think swinging the bat averages a better outcome, just give everyone an intentional BB to prevent it.
                      and absurd builds on absurd So Stanky was better than Aaron?

                      after all Stanky had better outcomes, right? That is what you are saying


                      And the funny part is that many of you BELIEVE it!!! LOL
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                        and absurd builds on absurd So Stanky was better than Aaron?

                        after all Stanky had better outcomes, right? That is what you are saying


                        And the funny part is that many of you BELIEVE it!!! LOL
                        Thats what you want out of a middle infielder and leadoff man isn't it? Aaron had a way higher slugging percentage, what you want out of a corner outfielder, middle of the order hitter.

                        At least me anyway. Better at getting on base but not more productive.
                        Last edited by bluesky5; 02-05-2013, 07:37 PM.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                          I see what you're saying Brett. There were however, articles written early on about how the homerun was "ruining" the game. I have read quotes from players, Ruth's teammates included, who tried to take his approach and their numbers suffered. So they quickly abandoned that notion and went back to what they knew, and what the league valued...batting average and low strikeout totals. There were many who did take a somewhat "Ruthian" approach, changing bat types, and swinging more aggressive, but mainly with less than two strikes. As you can see by the K numbers below, they stayed steady, despite other numbers changing.
                          Randy,

                          Are you referring to Ruth's teammates earlier in Ruth's career or later in Ruth's career? I do think that once Ruth showed what home runs can do to the game, power hitters like Gehrig, Foxx, Ott, Wilson, and Greenberg started appearing in the majors. Shoot, Hornsby's HR totals went from 9-21-42 in three seasons (1920-22). It seems Ruth "inspired" players with great hitting talent to hit with power?
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                            and absurd builds on absurd So Stanky was better than Aaron?

                            after all Stanky had better outcomes, right? That is what you are saying


                            And the funny part is that many of you BELIEVE it!!! LOL
                            OK, lets get this out of our system: You think batting average, RBI, slugging, and home runs are valid measures of player proficiency, don't you?

                            Batting average says Ralph Garr is better than Aaron, so you'd rather have Ralph Garr than Aaron.
                            RBI says that Rafael Palmiero was better than Honus Wagner, so you'd rather have Rafael than Honus.
                            Slugging percentage says Kevin Mitchell was better than Ty Cobb, so You'd rather have Kevin Mitchell than Ty Cobb.
                            Home runs say Dave Kingman was better than Duke Snider, so you'd rather have Kong than the Duke.

                            JR thinks this kind of exercise is entertaining or informative. JD thinks its infantile and tedious. So you'd rather be JR.
                            Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 02-05-2013, 10:28 PM.
                            Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                            Comment


                            • Pretty sure that no one's saying that JR.

                              However, Aaron, for his career, managed .555 total bases per at bat [((1B+(2*2B)+(3*3B)+(4*HR))/AB]
                              For each walk, Aaron averaged 1 total base.
                              A walk is, generally, a better outcome than swinging the bat.


                              this is the height of absurdity
                              you take walks as a stand alone, but all attempts to hit the ball are included in hits aggregate
                              are you aware that attempts to walk result in strikeouts (called third strikes) and the times you fall behind 0-2 and going for a walk is no longer a good option so you swing defensively and hit a weak grounder
                              etc etc etc

                              why dont you take aarons home runs and say he avergaed slugging 4.000 every time he hit a home run and whjen he tried to walk he avergaed .025 bases
                              same lopsided thinking
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • And Tony Perez and Harold Baines both had more RBI than Joe DiMaggio, so they were obviously better players.

                                Ooh, this is a fun exercise.



                                In futility.
                                My top 10 players:

                                1. Babe Ruth
                                2. Barry Bonds
                                3. Ty Cobb
                                4. Ted Williams
                                5. Willie Mays
                                6. Alex Rodriguez
                                7. Hank Aaron
                                8. Honus Wagner
                                9. Lou Gehrig
                                10. Mickey Mantle

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