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  • Mays vs Aaron

    I think this comparison is more interesting than Mays vs Bonds since Mays and Aaron where direct comtemporaries. Let the debate begin!!! Also please state your evidence for you choice.
    42
    Hank Aaron
    19.05%
    8
    Wiilie Mays
    80.95%
    34
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

  • #2
    --I'm as big an Aaron fan as anybody, but Mays was clearly better. As hitters they are pretty close, but Mays has a huge defensive advantage (great CF to very good RF) and a pretty big one on the basepaths.

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    • #3
      Mays & Aaron

      Just about every ranking I've seen has Mays in the top 3 or 4 of all time, with Aaron failing to crak the top 20 in some cases and always pretty far behind Mays.

      I assume the only reason for this is Willie's advantage on defense where he is arguable one of the top 3 centerfielders of all time.

      Am I correct in assuming that this was Willie's only advantage over Hank. In terms of Hitting, they are very close. Aaron has a slightly better BA (.305 to
      .302) Mays has a ten point advantage in OBP and their SLG averages are practically identical.

      From what I've heard, Hank was one of the better defensive RFs of his day.

      I'd like you guys to chime in on this: Do you think Mays' defensive advantage alone is large enough to have him so far ahaid of Aaron on every ranking?

      The main reason for this post is that I feel Aaron constantly gets shortchanged in the ranking systems. We're talking about the all-time leader in HR, RBI, TB, and many other stats.

      For him not to crack the top 10 on any list seems pretty silly to me.

      Any thoughts?
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

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      • #4
        My top 20 goes like this.
        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Willie Mays
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Ty Cobb
        6. Honus Wagner
        7. Stan Musial
        8. Walter Johnson
        9. Eddie Collins
        10. Rogers Hornsby
        11. Hank Aaron
        12. Nap Lajoie
        13. Mel Ott
        14. Tris Speaker
        15. Mickey Mantle
        16. Alex Rodriguez
        17. Lou Gehrig
        18. Roger Clemens
        19. Arky Vaughan
        20. Joe Morgan

        This list is not complete, because I do rank Roger Clemens over Walter Johnson for reasons other than total value. Roger Clemens pitched in an era a lot harder to pitch in, no matter what ANY era adjustments say, and I trust BP enough to know that nearly 90% of their era adjustments are reliable, just not with most pitchers.

        Their actual pitching (ERA, perhipherals) adjustments show Clemens to be far better.
        Last edited by BoSox Rule; 01-03-2006, 01:27 PM.

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        • #5
          Lou Gehrig not in the top 10? In what universe does Mel Ott belong ahead of him?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by GiambiJuice
            Any thoughts?
            People could also be looking at Mays's speed numbers as well...stolen bases and triples.

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            • #7
              Ott's home/road splits aren't great, but his park adjusted stats are still fantastic.

              Gehrig and Ott's 5 year WARP, 10 year WARP, and average WARP numbers are similiar. Ott had about 700 games on Lou.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BoSox Rule
                Ott's home/road splits aren't great, but his park adjusted stats are still fantastic.

                Gehrig and Ott's 5 year WARP, 10 year WARP, and average WARP numbers are similiar. Ott had about 700 games on Lou.
                Gehrig won 2 MVP's in a stronger league and should've won a 3rd in 1934

                Ott never sniffed an MVP trophy, or a triple crown for that matter

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                • #9
                  Can we stick to Mays and Aaron please?
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

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                  • #10
                    I'd like you guys to chime in on this: Do you think Mays' defensive advantage alone is large enough to have him so far ahaid of Aaron on every ranking?
                    I say this with all due respect to Aaron, who was a terrific ballplayer and outstanding individual, but this question is akin to saying, "Is Michael Jordan's defensive advantage alone large enough to have him so far ahaid of Pistol Pete Maravich on every ranking?"

                    Mays simply was the consummate ballplayer, doing everything on the field as needed to improve his team, including stealing bases, taking the extra base, throwing runners out, etc. Except for those power and batting average numbers you listed, Mays was the more complete ballplayer than Aaron. Now, whether that difference was so great as to create a gap into which the handful of other players named -- out of the thousands of players who've played the game, managed to slip in between them is a completely different question that shouldn't turn on the differences between Mays and Aaron. You should look at the difference between Aaron and each of those ranked ahead of him.

                    Perhaps you can look at it this way -- when I started following baseball in 1964 and 1965, Mays and Mantle clearly were the top players in the game, with Koufax coming on as no. 3. Some would have placed Clemente as #4, ahead of Aaron, but I've been challenged on that conclusion and will let it ride. My issue of Sport magazine at that time had an article titled "Hank Aaron: Underrated Superstar?"

                    Aaron by then had been in the game about ten years. Does that sound like someone who was regarded in his prime as one of the top ten players of all time? Or does it sound like someone of the caliber of, say, a Frank Thomas without injury problems and who managed to sustain a very high level of skill over a full twenty years?
                    sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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                    • #11
                      --If Frank Thomas had sustained anything close to his peak production for 20 years he WOULD be a top 10 all time player and so is Aaron. Mays was gets a boost over Aaron due to his outstanding CF defense in comparison in Aaron's outstanding RF defense. He was also a great baserunner to Aaron's very good in that department. As already shown, they were virtually identical as hitters. Aaron sustained his performance a little longer helping to offset Mays defensive and baserunning advantage. I have Mays #1 all time and Aaron #3. Hammering Hank finished 10th in both last years and this years BBF polls for best position player (Mays finished 3rd), so it seems those who rank him higher than that and those who rank him lower pretty much balance out.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BoSox Rule
                        Ott's home/road splits aren't great, but his park adjusted stats are still fantastic.

                        Gehrig and Ott's 5 year WARP, 10 year WARP, and average WARP numbers are similiar. Ott had about 700 games on Lou.
                        WARP inflates Ott somewhat - as well as Ripken, Palmeiro, Whitaker, etc. Win Shares is probably a better indicator in Ott's case. He still has a few more career Win Shares than Gehrig, but once you factor in league quality, per game-average, and peak - Gehrig should come out ahead, IMO.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BoSox Rule
                          Ott's home/road splits aren't great, but his park adjusted stats are still fantastic.

                          Gehrig and Ott's 5 year WARP, 10 year WARP, and average WARP numbers are similiar. Ott had about 700 games on Lou.
                          ....then you realize WARP 3 says that Carlos Guillen had a better 2004 than Vladimir Guerrero and you realize that something is wrong there.

                          I used to have a top 20 very similar until I realized little things like that about WARP.

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                          • #14
                            Mays ranks above Aaron on most lists, and in my opinion deservedly so, for several reasons:

                            1) He was a better baserunner and stole more.
                            2) He played a more challenging defensive position.
                            3) He was, amongst their respective defensive peers, more highly regarded.
                            4) His big seasons were bigger.
                            "Hall of Famer Whitey Ford now on the field... pleading with the crowd for, for some kind of sanity!"

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                            • #15
                              Also, later in his career ('66) Aaron got to move to the Launching Pad, which was further augmented in '69. Check out the park factor for the tail end of Aaron's career. Willie might have liked to hit there in his later years.
                              THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                              In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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