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  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    "All of the available evidence supports the supposition that Bonds used"
    v
    "Nobody can ever prove that he used, so logically, we can't say that he did"


    check out post #66 in this thread

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
    csh19792001, your position is "bonds used".
    mine is not "he did not use"; we are not on opposite sides of the issue.

    thanx for your generosity on the other stuff, though.
    I guess I was wrong about where we stand.

    My position is "All of the available evidence supports the supposition that Bonds used".

    I thought yours was "Nobody can ever prove that he used, so logically, we can't say that he did".

    In any case, thank you also for your reminiscences from days of yore.

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    csh19792001, your position is "bonds used".
    mine is not "he did not use"; we are not on opposite sides of the issue.

    thanx for your generosity on the other stuff, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    My rankings are always in flux, but Mays is routinely in the top 3, Aaron in the top 7 or 8 and Frank Robinson in the top 12 or 13. I think any discussion that has Mays and Aaron also should mention Frank Robinson.
    Does anyone read about the relationship between Mays and Aaron as ballplayers (attitudes towards each other, etc). Also, were/are they close friends?

    How about Frank Robinson's relationship with the other two titans?

    I think it's pretty incredible that Mays and Aaron got to play against each other for TWENTY years (in the same league, no less), and yet Aaron and Robinson's career also overlapped for 20 years (both were in the AL their last 2 years).

    Consider:
    Willie Mays (1951-73)
    Hank Aaron (1954-76)
    Frank Robinson (1956-76)

    Ty Cobb (1905-28)
    Tris Speaker (1907-28)
    Eddie Collins (1906-1928)

    Collins was just a coach of those awesome championship teams in 29' and 30'... for all intents and purposes he was retired the same year (and from the same team) as Cobb and Speaker.

    Pretty uncanny synchonicities, eh? Almost like a synergism applied to baseball.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    Clemente was all flash, little substance. Your beloved eyewitnesses will always overrate a player like that. Robinson was the exact opposite, and you'll probably never come to appreciate him.
    Not true. I did think Frank Robinson, and his team mate Vada Pinson were very good ballplayers. I always did. Valuing him less than Clemente is not a bad thing. Not if you knew how I value Roberto.

    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • 64Cards
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    Clemente was all flash, little substance. Your beloved eyewitnesses will always overrate a player like that. Robinson was the exact opposite, and you'll probably never come to appreciate him.
    Saw 'em both, thought they were both excellent players, team leaders, hard nosed guys. Slight edge to Frank because of the power.

    I'd love having either guy on my team.

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    I would substitute Clemente for Robinson, but am persuaded that I am the ONLY member of Fever who feels that way! Feels weird. But alright.
    Clemente was all flash, little substance. Your beloved eyewitnesses will always overrate a player like that. Robinson was the exact opposite, and you'll probably never come to appreciate him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    My rankings are always in flux, but Mays is routinely in the top 3, Aaron in the top 7 or 8 and Frank Robinson in the top 12 or 13. I think any discussion that has Mays and Aaron also should mention Frank Robinson.
    I would substitute Clemente for Robinson, but am persuaded that I am the ONLY member of Fever who feels that way! Feels weird. But alright.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    My rankings are always in flux, but Mays is routinely in the top 3, Aaron in the top 7 or 8 and Frank Robinson in the top 12 or 13. I think any discussion that has Mays and Aaron also should mention Frank Robinson.

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
    thanx, csh. but, on what issue(s) are we polar?

    as far as "the above v stat stuff", i simply see it as field of dreams v bull durham.
    plenty of room for both. plenty of need for both.
    Actually, the only issues that comes to mind at the moment is the case of Barry Bonds and the issue of how steroids/PED's impact performance and the game of baseball. Besides that, I think I actually tend to agree with you, and really enjoy what you have to say. It's just that I'm so strident (oft vitriolic) about steroids (and you post so frequently and vociferously on the other side of the issue) that it makes most of our interactions a clash, due to our fundamental schism in that area.

    I liked what you had to say on the "forget batting average, that's irrelevant" thread, in particular, and really enjoy all of your anecdotal arcana about the Giants of the 60's... entertaining and enlightening at the same time.

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    thanx, csh. but, on what issue(s) are we polar?

    as far as "the above v stat stuff", i simply see it as field of dreams v bull durham.
    plenty of room for both. plenty of need for both.

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by west coast orange and black
    sandlot: Candlestick probably affected fielders more than hitters.

    thanx for the invite, sandlot.

    (rest of post)

    “it wasn't one park, really, it was several” is a poetic, perfect description of the place where i teethed baseball, sandlot. hat’s off.
    Gotta say, man, we're on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to a couple particuarly salient issues, but I love when you post like this. The history forum needs a lot more of stuff like this and a LOT less of the mindless stat banter.

    Very nice composition, WCOAB.

    Leave a comment:


  • west coast orange and black
    replied
    sandlot: Candlestick probably affected fielders more than hitters.

    thanx for the invite, sandlot.
    i second the motion. over the years mays has said that exact thing several times.

    the candlestick wind was like no other i have ever seen or read about. it would blow in, out, to the right, left… and all at the same time, i swear. all of us fans have stories to tell involving players, batted balls, even happenings in the stands.

    i once saw tony gwynn in left field camp under a “routine” fly ball only to helplessly see it fall in front of him by 15’ for a double. and then a few innings later he was victimized again by the same type of fly ball.

    pedro guererro once made two complete circles while going back on a ball… that dropped in front of him.

    fierce competitor kevin mitchell once said that he’d almost rather ride pine than go out there for night games.

    and the worst kind of hot dog wrappers whizzing by were the ones that had lots of mustard on them. look out!

    start times had a dramatic effect on what type of game would be played, for certain. the night games routinely included nasty winds, dampness, and heavy fog. and, oh, the cold. yikes. “croix de candlestick” pins used to handed out to “survivors” of extra inning night games. they were and still are proudly worn at home games. the giants had several other promotions that poked fun at the cold and wind and permafrost and ice.

    it is hard to believe that candlestick park’s temperature during the 6-month season is but 2 degrees lower than cozy ol’ oakland across the bay, but it is true. the biting wind is the culprit that made things miserable.

    getting back to hitting v fielding. the hitter always knew when the ball was going to arrive, the fielder did not. the hitter wanted to get business over with, the fielder was just stuck out there, freezing. deion sanders patrolled left for the giants in, uh, ’95, and hated it. all warm weather guys did. players would wear parkas and snow gloves and carves and earmuffs and such during the summer months and also used space heaters in the dugout. barry bonds famously purchased scuba gear -- worn ‘neath specially-ordered, larger-sized jerseys so to accommodate the extra layer -- for his fellow outfielders to wear upon arrival in san francisco.
    there is a good reason why a foghorn used to be sounded to signal that a giants player just went deep.

    aaron v mays? pretty much a toss-up. and for me, the coin lands on mays, if only because of what he accomplished against great odds for so long. ever so smart and insightful, mays actually changed his approach in the box from at-bat to at-bat, depending on the weather... from pitch to pitch, even. in the old days, when the ballpark was horseshoe-shaped and open, things were bad enough. but what was thought to be a cure actually worsened the weather conditions. the now fully enclosed park has swirling winds sweeping directly off the bay (candlestick point has long been a sailboarder’s paradise for great reason).

    mays never tossed blades of grass to check the wind. and he never looked at the flags, either. he says that he simply checked the fans in the stands in lower box and upper reserve and behind home plate and in the bleachers and then used his own formula to determine what was going on.

    this coming from the man who once raced to henry aaron gapper to left-center by and fired it into second, yelling for tito fuentes to toss it over to willie mccovey at first. fuentes did as instructed without knowing why.
    “out” was the cry from the firstbase ump.
    aaron had indeed missed first, but how did mays know that? his back was turned to the infield.
    “i saw hank kinda pump-shake his fist, and figured that he was kinda mad at himself for doing something wrong.”

    “it wasn't one park, really, it was several” is a poetic, perfect description of the place where i teethed baseball, sandlot. hat’s off.

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    Why don't we ask Brian Giles?

    Overall, I tend to agree though, of course there are many that still slip through the cracks.

    Jason Bay will be another.
    Jason Bay and Brian Giles are underrated more because A)They are not exciting players to watch, and B)Their skill sets are very underrapreciated by the general, non SABR public.

    I still think big market players may get somewhat of a boost in reaching superstardom, but I agree with 64Cards that in the modern era with advanced media it isn't nearly as big a factor as it's made out to be.

    Originally posted by csh19792001
    In complete agreement with everything here, esp the last part. Not that he doesn't have an argument for greatest ever, but Mays is (and has always been) overhyped, while Aaron oddly (yet somehow also not unexpectedly) remains underhyped by most, it seems.
    So, Chris, Mays is overhyped (which is basically the same thing as overrated)? Why is that? If you're going to do something as outlandish as call Willie Mays overrated, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by 64Cards
    In todays age, with cable and a chance for everyone to see everyone, at least on highlight shows, I don't think playing in a smaller market is as big of a roadblock for not getting attention.
    Why don't we ask Brian Giles?

    Overall, I tend to agree though, of course there are many that still slip through the cracks.

    Jason Bay will be another.

    Leave a comment:

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