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  • #91
    Al Ba 1967-77

    --236, 230, 246, 250, 247, 239, 259, 258, 258, 256, 266. So it wasn't until Jackson was past 30 that the league BA climbed as high as .260 (and I'll concede Reggie was a poor contact hitter in his later years). Jackson's park were also bad ones for BA, Oakland being the worst in the league and Yankee stadium not much better (check out the averages on the championship teams he played for in both places - all 5 of them ). Hitting for average was not one of Reggie's great strengths, but it wasn't a terrible weakness either.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by [email protected]
      But just because he isn't the kind of player I prefer, I do not hold that against him in any way. I feel I do give him his due credit, but realize, that he had his shortcomings as a player, as do all others. I can see the good in him, but some can't see his limitations. And that is not my fault.
      You are low rating him because you don't prefer his type. Reggie did have one limitation-lots of strikeouts. Willie Keeler (who you rate like 10 spots ahead of Reggie) had limitation-power. Which limitation is more important? I'm sure you can pick that out. Keeler was a much better contact hitter than Reggie, but Reggie was a better fielder and his power was like 10 times better..

      It's fine with me if you don't like Reggie as much as myself or Mark. It's not fine with you leaving him out of your top 100 and rating guys like Sammy Sosa (who ironically has like the same skill set) and Willie Keeler.

      And I know you know better than this Bill:

      Relative stats:

      ------------BA--------onbase------SLG
      home------.99----------1.09-------1.25
      away-----1.04---------1.19--------1.30

      All in all, I'd say good numbers, but not great numbers. And I think that is a fair estimation of Reggie.
      First, try to find one player from the 1970s with a road rel. OBP of 119 and a road rel. SLG of 130. Second, Reggie had a long decline phase which really brought down his rate stats. You don't even attempt to adjust for this.
      Last edited by 538280; 01-13-2006, 07:02 PM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by 538280
        You are low rating him because you don't prefer his type. It's fine with me if you don't like Reggie as much as myself or Mark. It's not fine with you leaving him out of your top 100 and rating guys like Sammy Sosa (who ironically has like the same skill set) and Willie Keeler.

        First, try to find one player from the 1970s with a road rel. OBP of 119 and a road rel. SLG of 130. Second, Reggie had a long decline phase which really brought down his rate stats. You don't even attempt to adjust for this.
        I disagree. I recently went back and reworked my Top 100, in order to bring more consistency to my order of sequence. I dropped Collins, Sisler down due to they were too high. I had unconsciously used all time team considerations in putting them so high. And I put Reggie Jackson into my Top 100. I put him at #90, beneath others who were similar, like Sosa, McCovey, Mize, Thomas, Kiner, Killebrew and McGwire. And I ranked Reggie above Keeler, Gwynn, Boggs, Rose and Carew.

        So, I think you do my order wrong, Chris.

        I'll tell you what. Since you think Reggie compares well with the great sluggers of the game, try this little experiment. Try taking his away games slugging ave., index it to L average, and then transpose those series of figures, starting in 1920, to see how Reggie stacks up against the AL guys of the 20's & 30's.

        Then, and only then will you see how really poorly Reggie stands up as a slugger. He will be shown to have a BA of .300, when the others had .350, etc. Below is my bottom 30 of my Top 100.

        71. Mel Ott 23
        72. Paul Waner 69
        73. Johnny Mize 48
        74. Craig Biggio 30
        75. Ernie Banks 63
        76. Jeff Bagwell 37
        77. Mike Piazza 65
        78. Brooks Robinson 76
        79. Ron Santo 72
        80. Ernie Banks 63
        81. Bobby Grich
        82. Sammie Sosa - RF45
        83. Willie McCovey - 55
        84. Mark McGuire - 26
        85. Harmon Killebrew - 49
        86. Ken Boyer - 3B12
        87. Joe Cronin - SS8
        88. Ralph Kiner - LF18
        89. Frank Thomas 61
        90. Reggie Jackson 43
        91. Tony Gwynn 41
        92. Wade Boggs 46
        93. Pete Rose - 28
        94. Luke Appling - SS11
        95. Rod Carew 50
        96. Willie Keeler - RF35
        97. Spot Poles, NL -
        98 Bobby Wallace - SS36
        99. Ned Williamson - SS45
        100. Bill Lange - CF64
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-14-2006, 09:29 AM.

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        • #94
          Willie won the PR battle because people kept talking about him.

          The Lip: If someone came along and hit .350 every year with 100SB and 50 (or 60?) HR and made a miraculous play in the field every day, I'd still say Willie was better.

          Dodgers manager after Willie fielded a ball and nailed a runner at the plate from 325 ft. away with a perfect throw. "I won't beleive that play until I see him do it again."

          Giants coaches from at least 1954 on: If the ball goes to center--COVER A BASE!

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          • #95
            Hank Aaron vs Willie Mays

            who was the better player?

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            • #96
              mays is the best player ever with ruth. aaron was fantastic, but no willie.

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              • #97
                Fonzie got to meet Aaron, but he said Mays was the greatest of all-time.
                Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                • #98
                  I vote Aaron- yeah, Mays was a centerfielder with good defense, but Aaron had defense too. His FRAA is 76, and lasted longer than Mays, with an OPS+ just one point lower. I also don't believe in war credit, because you don't know what could have happened. I choose Aaron. I have him #4, and Mays #5

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                  • #99
                    I don't know the Hammer was a better offensive force and didn't suck in the playoffs

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                    • I'd have to say that Mays was the better player because:

                      1. Mays baserunning was far superior to Aaron's.
                      2. Mays played a harder outfield position and was better defensivley.
                      3. Considering that both are close as hitters, and Willie's defense is superior, Willie is the better player.
                      "He studied hitting like a broker studies the stock market, how a scribe studies the scriptures" - Carl Yastrzemski on Ted Williams

                      "The greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history has done it again! Big Papi!" - Don Orsillo's call of Ortiz's walk-off single

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                      • Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                        mays is the best player ever with ruth. aaron was fantastic, but no willie.
                        Mays was a somewhat better, and far more exiting, ballplayer than Aaron. But, as tremendous as they both were, neither are legitimately comparable to Babe Ruth. If any ballplayer, in any sport, performed at superhuman levels, it was Babe Ruth. His greatness dwarfs both the all-round splendor of Mays, and the solid longevity of Aaron. And, that is not New York hype. That is well-documented fact.

                        My vote goes to Willie - slightly, ignoring Korea; significantly, considering Korea.* But, Aaron is not far behind.

                        * (This time Willie gets the asterisk.) There is also a worthy counter-argument that Mays actually benefitted from his time in the service, because it allowed him to put on substantial muscular weight and develop a more powerful swing.
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by TRfromBR; 06-27-2007, 09:06 PM.

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                        • Willie Mays, hands down. People know Aaron for his bat...people know Mays for his bat, his fielding, his speed....

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                          • Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                            Willie Mays, hands down. People know Aaron for his bat...people know Mays for his bat, his fielding, his speed....
                            The perception of the general public is always a great indicator of a ballplayer's relative worth.
                            3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                            • I forgot I started this thread seven years ago!
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                              • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                                The perception of the general public is always a great indicator of a ballplayer's relative worth.
                                There's a reason why certain individuals are remembered in certain ways.

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