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Just something me and my friend were discussing today. Two underrated ballplayers in my opinion. Vaughn lost some years to World War II service as well.
Who would you rather have?
Who would you rather have?
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Last edited by csura999; 02-12-2013, 09:57 PM. -
I'd take Vaughan and it isn't all that close. The only edge Appling has is a longer career, but the difference isn't quite as great if you give credit for Vaughan missing 3 years to the war. Appling also lost a year to the war but he was already 37 at the time. And personally I give greater weight to peak value than career value. I could understand Arky being rated higher than ARod, depending on what you believe about his latest PED insinuation. I still have Honus very comfortably ahead as the greatest SS of all time, but I can see Arky holding down the #2 spot. I would have Appling towards the lower half of my top ten. -
Who can deny Luke Appling?!
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash DavisComment
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Who was better defensively overall? I know Arky Vaughn is probably among the most underrated players in the Hall of Fame. Appling was solid throughout his career, but like you were saying: Vaughn was just a terrific hitter. His career OPS dwarfs Appling's pretty handily. We both agreed on Vaughn, but looking at the stats just recently I thought their stats would be more close but I guess not.Originally posted by CTaka View PostComment
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Haha, yes!Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post"No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”Comment
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I don't think Vaughn served in the military, didn't he quit over a clash with Durocher. I would still say Vaughn was the better of the two though.
I'm pretty sure Vaughn worked at a munitions plant while he was retired during WW2.Last edited by chicagowhitesox1173; 02-13-2013, 01:24 PM."(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack
"I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)Comment
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Arky Vaughan
Luke Appling was a damn fine shortstop though."No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”Comment
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Vaugahn by a decent margin.1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011
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Even I have to admit Arky was the better player, but OA&P was more fun.Last edited by ol' aches and pains; 02-14-2013, 05:13 AM.They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.Comment
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Defensively, Bill James gave Appling a fielding grade of B while Vaughan received a B+.Originally posted by csura999 View PostComment
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Both fangraphs and BBREF give Appling about a 20 defensive run above average edge. That's probably due entirely to difference in playing time.Originally posted by CTaka View Post
BBREF WAR has them almost dead even around 70, and fangraphs has Appling ahead, 84 to 74. The disparity I think is almost entirely due to different values for replacement level.
Vaughan's OPS+ edge is misleading, because Appling's on-base and slugging are almost identical at about .400 while Vaughan's are spread apart some, about .400 to .450. If you take the product, which is more accurate, rather than the sum, Appling is closer.
Vaughan's WOBA is .400, Applings .378, wRC+ 138 to 116.
But it boils down to about a .15 offensive edge vs a 1/3 playing time advantage for Appling measured by plate appearances, 6622 to 8856. That's close to four average years.
I see it as a puzzler, not a no-brainer at all. Personally, if I were a GM, I'd rather have Appling, especially because Appling was very good in his "decline" years, which Vaughan pretty much missed. Appling by a good bit, actually.Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 02-13-2013, 11:37 PM.Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS PeirceComment
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It will be interesting to see where members rank Appling in Tyrus's top 10 shortstops list. I tend to recall alot of members leaving him off and ranking Vaughan as a top 3. i do feel Appling is very underrated and he probably would be higher on these top 10 lists had he reached 3000 hits and he would have reached that if not for missing close to two years in the service. I like Appling alot more than Vaughan but it's pretty hard to ignore Vaughans peak."(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack
"I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)Comment
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Coin flip here, Appling.Comment
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