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Roger Clemens- The Greatest Pitcher Ever?

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  • Canseco almost went so far as to accuse Clemens of taking steroids in his book, but stopped short of actually doing so because he had never seen Roger do it, or heard Roger admit it. Basically, he had no evidence. Strange that that stopped Canseco from making accusations, as it has never stopped him before.

    I haven't noticed where Roger's face is "puffy". Certainly his face doesn't appear to have changed by an unusual amount from age 22 to age 42, at least no more so than is to be expected. From the pictures and videos I have seen, Ted Williams', Hank Aaron's, and Babe Ruth's faces filled out as much, or more, over those same ages.

    Aggression is a poor indicator, since some people were even more aggressive long before steroids were invented. Remember, Clemens never jumped into the stands and beat up a fan.

    I am open to the suggestion that Clemens takes steroids, provided there is some good evidence.

    Sir, why do you think that Seaver and Carlton are better than Roger? I can't see any ratonale, either statistical or anecdotal. I've made my case for Roger's stats in this thread; he has Seaver and Carlton beat in almost every stat category (ERA+, K's, PR+); has more Triple Crowns and more league-leading titles in wins, ERA, K's, etc. As far as the other stuff - peer evaluation and peer reputation, whatever, goes - well, 7 Cy Youngs?? That's ridiculous. I agree with Chris - what more does this guy have to do? Everything he does from here on out is just icing on the cake.
    Last edited by Metal Ed; 05-06-2005, 06:55 AM.

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    • Speaking of Clemens and Seaver, have you noticed how similar their mechanics are? Seaver ended up with his right leg a little closer to the ground, and Clemens doesn't put his hands over his head when he winds up; but other than that, they look like twins to me.

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      • Originally posted by leecemark
        -- Clemens' 300 wins now are at least as impressive as Johnson's 400 in his day.
        How is this so? There are several modern-day 300-game winners; only one person -- Cy Young -- ever surpassed Walter's win total.

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        • --Only Clemens and Maddux (who I rate 5th behind Clemens, Grove, Johnson and Young) have won 300 in the days of the 5 man rotation. I think it may be along time before anybody else joins that club.
          --There were some great workhorses in the waning days of the 4 man (the only 4 man, 162 game generation) that got over 300. Of those, I have Seaver in my top 10 and Carlton in my top 15. Neikro, Ryan and Perry all make my top 30. Sutton got there largely by staying good for an extrordinarily long time, rather than by being an elite pitcher, but he still makes my top 50.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Metal Ed
            Potato:

            That last post left a bad taste in my mouth; it's actually been in my mind for the last few hours, so much so that I wanted to put this in before I went to bed. In fact, I almost just now deleted the whole thing, but decided that would be dishonest.

            Let me apologize a little. I DID push the limits of good sportsmanship with that Rocky IV comment. I didn't mean anything terrible by it; it wasn't meant to make you look like an idiot. But once I'd thought of it, I just couldn't let a good joke like that go unused. (You have to admit it was pretty good.) Don't let it get your blood pressure up. I should have put a smiley face or a "all in good fun" comment in there; without it, it constitutes crossing a certain line.

            Now, I do think you should take the time to consider that my one slip-up (mischaracterizing your argument as "certainly" instead of "perhaps") doesn't automatically render, you know, ALL of my points to you and Bill as "strawmen." Even the one strawman that I did make was completely unintentional. And I'm sure Bill doesn't consider all of my counterpoints to him strawmen. I also ask that you review your own post for things that you might have said in the heat of the moment that you didn't mean.
            I apologize as well, human nature and personality flaws lead me to fight viciously when my words are taken out of context, really big and only pet peeve of mine

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            • Originally posted by BoSox Rule
              It's a shame how he left Boston. It's also a shame that he doesn't want to go in the Hall of Fame with the team where his greatest accomplishments came, but I have to recognize him for what he is. The greatest pitcher of all-time. If you can take any pitcher of all-time for one season, it may not be Clemens. You may not even take him for one season or one game out of every pitcher of his own era (Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson) but he's been great. Not as great as Pedro at his best, but he has been consistently great. Here are the translated stats from www.baseballprospectus.com, the pitchers listed are the top 20 (21 actually, Carlton and Koufax tied) pitchers from the Baseball-Fever voting and are listed, obviously, by their ERA's.
              Code:
              Pitcher              W   L    IP    ERA   H/9  BB/9  K/9
              Sandy Koufax        184  61 2231.0  2.70  6.1   2.1 10.6
              Bob Gibson          278 121 3626.0  2.89  7.2   2.8  8.4
              Satchel Paige        37  19  478.7  2.90  7.3   2.4  8.4
              Roger Clemens       413 162 5310.3  2.91  7.4   2.4  8.9
              Pedro Martinez      235  97 3018.0  2.93  6.5   2.0  9.5
              Tom Seaver          361 153 4706.0  2.99  6.9   2.3  7.6
              Lefty Grove         303 132 3886.7  2.99  8.0   2.1  8.7
              Randy Johnson       320 131 4112.7  3.01  6.4   2.5 10.5
              Walter Johnson      394 198 5195.7  3.08  7.4   2.0  8.2
              Juan Marichal       247 113 5195.7  3.13  7.6   1.5  6.4
              Warren Spahn        386 202 5194.0  3.18  7.9   2.1  5.7
              Greg Maddux         373 188 5044.0  3.21  8.5   1.4  6.0
              Cy Young            396 205 5378.3  3.22  8.2   1.2  6.6
              Bob Feller          382 147 3851.3  3.31  7.2   3.4  8.7
              Pete Alexander      339 179 4641.0  3.34  8.4   1.5  6.7
              Carl Hubbell        245 147 3494.3  3.37  7.9   1.6  7.3
              Kid Nichols         245 141 3442.0  3.39  7.8   1.9  7.0
              Steve Carlton       364 203 5158.0  3.45  7.6   2.8  8.2
              Christy Mathewson   280 170 3938.3  3.58  8.4   1.6  7.0
              Miner Brown         174 126 2634.3  3.86  8.9   2.0  5.6
              Interesting to look at. Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens are struggling this year according to translated stats, which brought them from 1 & 3 respectively in terms of ERA to where they are now, so it will be interesting to see where they rank at the end of the season. I based my vote on their real stats, but this is just another way to look at things.
              I found out why Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez were struggling in 2005 going by translated stats. There was a problem in the database that messed up 2005 statistics. New translated stats will be in my next post.

              Comment


              • Code:
                Pitcher              W   L    IP    ERA   H/9  BB/9  K/9
                Pedro Martinez      244  90 3020.7  2.69  6.5   2.0  9.6
                Sandy Koufax        184  61 2231.0  2.70  6.1   2.1 10.6
                Roger Clemens       424 156 5301.0  2.74  7.1   2.4  9.0
                Randy Johnson       329 129 4119.0  2.88  6.4   2.9 10.5
                Bob Gibson          278 121 3626.0  2.89  7.2   2.8  8.4
                Satchel Paige        37  19  478.7  2.90  7.3   2.4  8.4
                Tom Seaver          361 153 4706.0  2.99  6.9   2.3  7.6
                Lefty Grove         303 132 3886.7  2.99  8.0   2.1  8.7
                Walter Johnson      394 198 5195.7  3.08  7.4   2.0  8.2
                Juan Marichal       247 113 5195.7  3.13  7.6   1.5  6.4
                Greg Maddux         381 187 5052.0  3.15  8.5   1.4  6.1
                Warren Spahn        386 202 5194.0  3.18  7.9   2.1  5.7
                Cy Young            396 205 5378.3  3.22  8.2   1.2  6.6
                Bob Feller          382 147 3851.3  3.31  7.2   3.4  8.7
                Pete Alexander      339 179 4641.0  3.34  8.4   1.5  6.7
                Carl Hubbell        245 147 3494.3  3.37  7.9   1.6  7.3
                Kid Nichols         245 141 3442.0  3.39  7.8   1.9  7.0
                Steve Carlton       364 203 5158.0  3.45  7.6   2.8  8.2
                Christy Mathewson   280 170 3938.3  3.58  8.4   1.6  7.0
                Miner Brown         174 126 2634.3  3.86  8.9   2.0  5.6
                Sandy Koufax and Pedro Martinez, combined, don't have as many translated innings as Roger Clemens. I'm also not sure how much this adjusts for Sandy Koufax's advantages as a Dodger in the 1960's.
                Last edited by BoSox Rule; 06-16-2005, 12:45 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by leecemark
                  --Only Clemens and Maddux (who I rate 5th behind Clemens, Grove, Johnson and Young) have won 300 in the days of the 5 man rotation. I think it may be along time before anybody else joins that club.
                  --There were some great workhorses in the waning days of the 4 man (the only 4 man, 162 game generation) that got over 300. Of those, I have Seaver in my top 10 and Carlton in my top 15. Neikro, Ryan and Perry all make my top 30. Sutton got there largely by staying good for an extrordinarily long time, rather than by being an elite pitcher, but he still makes my top 50.
                  It's concievable that Clemens might get to 380-400 wins now that his son got drafted. Supposedly, Clemens would like to play with his son who is a catcher.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                  • Roger Clemens is the Best Right-handed Pitcher of All-Time

                    In 1968 Bob Gibson had a 1.12 era when the league era was 2.37, Clemens has a 1.32 era and the league era is over four. 339 career wins, 4000+ strikeouts, what more do you need, Cy Young Award's? He has 7 and should win his 8th this year. He is having the best season of his career in what could be the last of his career. His off-season workout program is the most rigorous of all 43 year old pitchers. No one works harder than Roger Clemens. He has had ten seasons with an era under 3 with nine of them in the american league. Clemens has won 20 games 6 times. His world series era is 1.90 in 47.1 innings pitched. He is the best right-handed pitcher in the history of major league baseball.

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                    • I'll go you one further. He's argualbly the best pitcher in MLB history.
                      "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                      Carl Yastrzemski

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                      • It's hard to compare with Walter Johnson's raw numbers, but Clemens has dominated more than any other pitcher in MLB history, with the agruable exceptions of Johnson or Grove. I'm leaning towards Clemens for the #1 spot.

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                        • As Dodger said, it's hard to argue against Johnson's numbers, but Clemens has dominated in a more talented era, and in an era that has heavily favored offense for the past 12 years; whereas Johnson spent most his prime in the pitcher-friendly deadball era.

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                          • whats Clemen's ERA+ so far this year?

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                            • Originally posted by blackout805
                              whats Clemen's ERA+ so far this year?
                              Last I saw, it was 309 about 10 days ago.
                              "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                              Carl Yastrzemski

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dodger
                                It's hard to compare with Walter Johnson's raw numbers, but Clemens has dominated more than any other pitcher in MLB history, with the agruable exceptions of Johnson or Grove.
                                Uh, with the exceteption of Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson, and that's just in his own era.
                                "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                                Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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