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Roger Clemens- The Greatest Pitcher Ever?

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  • Originally posted by ElHalo
    Uh, with the exceteption of Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson, and that's just in his own era.
    You think that they're better? Or just more dominant?

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    • I would say Pedro is actually more dominant than Roger.

      Pedro is more dominant on a per inning basis than any pitcher ever. His career ERA+ is much, much better than anyone else's. He also has better peak years (except Clemens this year is having a better year than Pedro ever had). I would say Pedro is more dominant, but not better. Obviously, Roger has a large durability advantage, and it certainly seems like Roger will finish with a much, much longer career, but on a per inning basis, Roger would have to have like 3 more years like 2005, and Pedro would have to really decline. I say Pedro is more dominant, but not better

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      • Originally posted by NShlain
        In 1968 Bob Gibson had a 1.12 era when the league era was 2.37, Clemens has a 1.32 era and the league era is over four. 339 career wins, 4000+ strikeouts, what more do you need, Cy Young Award's? He has 7 and should win his 8th this year. He is having the best season of his career in what could be the last of his career. His off-season workout program is the most rigorous of all 43 year old pitchers. No one works harder than Roger Clemens. He has had ten seasons with an era under 3 with nine of them in the american league. Clemens has won 20 games 6 times. His world series era is 1.90 in 47.1 innings pitched. He is the best right-handed pitcher in the history of major league baseball.

        a man named Walter Johnson says hello. I'll give you Roger being #2 all time, but I cant give him #1, much as i love him.

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        • I've said this before and I'll say it again. If I had a time machine (i'm looking into the cost), and dropped Clemens on the mound in 1913 he, (and how many others from today?) would dominate the game. If you dropped Johnson on the mound in 2005, he would be a great pitcher and perhaps, with proper coaching and preparation, as dominant as Pedro and RJ, but he would not achive the stature of Clemens. His sidearm fast ball may have seemed like it "exploded over the plate," but what were the hitters comparing it to; the ones Ruth used to look up at for three seconds before he smacked them out of Yankee Stadium?

          I hear everyone say they are pitchers of different eras and yes, that is true, but I see comparisons between today's pitching and that of the Golden age of Baseball all the time. You'll throw Clemens' numbers at me and you'll throw Johnson's numbers as well. Numbers are dandy, but they don't tell the whole story. Never have; never will. You need look no further for evidence of that by going up and down the list of inducties and the list of hopefuls at Cooperstown.

          It's called progress and with progression in anything professional, theoretically, performance gets better.

          So, if were talking about performance then, in my opinion, Clemens is the best pitcher in MLB history.

          Is it all realtive? I don't think so.

          RJ and Pedro are great, HOF bound pitchers, but they are not Roger Clemens.

          Please..no what ifs.

          That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it..unless, of course you can convince me otherwise.

          (and I don't even like Clemens...he's a goof)
          "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
          Carl Yastrzemski

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dodger
            It's hard to compare with Walter Johnson's raw numbers, but Clemens has dominated more than any other pitcher in MLB history, with the agruable exceptions of Johnson or Grove. I'm leaning towards Clemens for the #1 spot.
            I've been reluctant to make inter-era greatest lists lately because I'm considering it really is impossible to compare players/pitchers from many decades apart (i.e. 75 or 100 years) apart.

            Assuming that Clemens has not used illegal performance enhancing drugs, he's easily the best pitcher post WWII- that's basically the threshold of modern integrated baseball. Can we compare him to Walter Johnson? Probably only for fun, and not with any precision whatsoever- it was a completely different world and a completely different game in 1915.

            One thing is clear, however- Big Train was the best old time pitcher, and Clemens is the best modern pitcher, bar none.
            Last edited by csh19792001; 08-16-2005, 10:29 PM.

            Comment


            • This is why they wait five years to induct people...

              but if eligibility started immediately upon your retirement, people would have a tendency to focus far too mcuh on a player's last season as you guys are doing right now when you proclaim Clemens the greatest pitcher of all time as though it's a complete no brainer and you'd be crazy not to agree...

              This is undoubtedly a great season...assuming he's not roiding.

              Clemens is undoubtedly a great pitcher. There may even be an argument for himi being the greatest...but proir to the 2005 season, I had Maddux barely ahead of Clemens and both of them behind Walter Johnson and Cy Young...if he finishes this season well..he might just pass all three....he was close enough to make it possible...but I hardly tink it's a foregone conclusion that Clemens is the greatest and I think posts here reveal the "recent" bias...or at the very least the flashbulb bias (the tendency to remember the great peaks and valleys and nothing in between.

              For a great majority of his career, Roger Clemens was a very solid pitcher...he walked a few too many..he gave up some longballs...but he was very solid. Don't let the best season in baseball history blind you to what has come before.

              On another note, I think it's completely bogus that players from different eras can't be compared on a scientific basis (something that goes beyond "just for fun"...and in fact I think it's absolutely critical that those comparisons take place because the best way to predict the future is to understand the past.

              Comment


              • I would choose a peak Pedro or peak Randy to start an important game for me over a peak Clemens. Pedro is the most dominating pitcher ever and it's not even close. The only argument people have against him is durability. His performance is never questioned, nor should it be. But consider this, Pedro has been in the top 10 of IP 6 times in 11 seasons as a starter (his first 2 years were out of the bullpen). Clemens has been in the top 10 of IP 12 times in 21 seasons. Those are very similar percentages for both of them so Clemens seems to hardly have the durability argument over Pedro.

                Clemens has been one of the top 5 pitchers for about 20 years, but he was the best about 4 times (not all his Cys were deserved). Pedro has been the best pitcher in history over a 2 year stretch (99-00) and considered the best pitcher from about 99-03. He has won 3 Cys but probably could have easily won 5.

                Clemens is having an incredible season this year no doubt, but I think a lot of people are incorrectly remembering him as being this good for his entire career, which isn't true.

                Comment


                • I'd be one happy manager to have any of the three in my rotation now or during thier peak years, but if I had a choice between the three in a free agent market and all three were at thier peak, I'd focus my efforts on Clemens.
                  "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                  Carl Yastrzemski

                  Comment


                  • If I had to choose between RJ, CLemens, and Pedro...as they were just entering their prime years to build my team around...I'd choose Clemens...but I had unbridled choice of all of the great pitchers just entering their prime and could pick just one...it would be Maddux.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NShlain
                      In 1968 Bob Gibson had a 1.12 era when the league era was 2.37 ...
                      Uh, no ... the average ERA in the NL in 1968 was 2.98.

                      I don't disagree with your basic premise, but if you want to convince more people you should probably stick to the actual facts ...
                      97 years and counting ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ElHalo
                        Uh, with the exceteption of Randy Johnson, and that's just in his own era.
                        Randy Johnson has how many Cy Youngs?
                        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          Randy Johnson has how many Cy Youngs?
                          Randy has five Cy Young Awards.

                          1995, 1999-2002
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
                            Randy has five Cy Young Awards.

                            1995, 1999-2002
                            Who's more likely to get another one this year? (or at least deserve one)
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                            Comment


                            • Roger vs. Randy vs. Pedro

                              Roger and Randy at their peaks are too close to call, I can see an agruement either way. Better ERA+ in top seasons - Roger; Best run of "dominant" seasons - Randy (99-03). So based on longevity, not counting this season at all Roger is a clear choice.

                              Pedro clearly has had more dominant seasons, even after factoring in the fact that he's pitching about 220 innings in his best seasons verses 250-270 for Roger or Randy. Pedro is very high among the all-time greats with a few more good seasons under his belt, he could end up as the greatest of all-time. But he's not there yet.

                              Comment


                              • Huh? Clemens hasn't had a year over 250 innings since 1997.
                                I'm a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech and a Hell of an Engineer!

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