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Greatest Pitching Season Ever

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    HOW the HECK did you know THAT?
    I subtracted! 2000-1913 = 87! Voila! I'm so smart!
    Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by torez77
      I subtracted! 2000-1913 = 87! Voila! I'm so smart!
      But how the heck did you know it was those two GUYS and those two SEASONS?
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RuthMayBond
        But how the heck did you know it was those two GUYS and those two SEASONS?
        Cuz those are arguably the best 2 seasons on the ballot. I looked and saw they were 87 years apart, you said you were debating on 2 seasons 87 years apart, a light bulb appeared above my head, and there you go!
        Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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        • #19
          My slate of candidates for Best Seasons Ever for a Pitcher:

          --------------------------W-L------ShO------ERA+---Inn.
          1. Johnson ---- 1913-------36-7-----11-------258----346
          2. Alexander --- 1915------31-10---- 12-------225---376
          3. Koufax ------ 1965------26-8-------8-------160---336
          4. Gibson -------1968------22-9------13-------258---305
          5. Brown ------- 1906------26-6------10-------254---277
          6. Matty ------- 1909------25-6-------8-------223---275
          7. Joss -------- 1908------24-11------9--------206---325
          8. Wood ------- 1912------34-5------10-------178---344
          9. Coombs ----- 1910------31-9------13-------182---353
          10. McGinnity -- 1904------35-8-------9-------169---408

          I give high precedence to ERA+, in conjuction with W-L, Shutouts, and a variety of other stats. Some of the flashier ERA+ seasons of modern vintage by Maddux/Martinez came with too few inninings pitched to make my cut. Sorry about that. I like to see at least 250 innings pitched or so. I have no hard rules.

          My award winner, Walter Johnson's 1913 campaign led his league in:
          Wins, W-L%, shutouts, CG, innings, SO, ERA, ERA+, Total Baseball's RATIO, Opponents BA, Opponents on-base ave., pitching runs+, wins shares, total pitching wins, fewest hits/g, fewest BB/g, SO/g, Total Baseball's starter runs, adjusted starter runs, total pitcher index.

          In other words, Walter swept the boards that year. And he did it while pitching 346 innings. He also won the MVP award. A true evergreen, classic, vintage Year For the Ages.

          Bill Burgess
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-27-2005, 02:47 PM.

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          • #20
            Get Koufax out of that group
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

            Comment


            • #21
              Koufax's ERA+ was alot higher in '66 than in '65, and his W-L record was virtually the same.
              Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

              Comment


              • #22
                All last year, I fought hard to show the Fever jury that my case for Cobb over Ruth deserved to win. Lost the case. Jury apparently didn't like my circumstancial case. My theoretical "what-if" case, failed to impress.

                Now I'm walking into court, once again with a real winner. I'm smiling with the confidence of an attorney who has all the cards in his hand. My Walter Johnson 1913 case is a slam dunk, sure thing.

                He won everything there was to win, MVP, set a record of 56 consecutive scoreless innings, winning streaks of 16, 12 and 10 in the same year, amazing ERA, ERA+, didn't commit an error on defense, 36-7, 11 Shutouts.

                I lost my last case with Cobb, despite a winning hand. If I lose this case, with all the "right stuff", it will be a bad year for my Eternal Verities.

                Don't let me lose, Fever. Keep an open mind. History is on our side.

                Bill Burgess

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                • #23
                  As of right now, Bill, Walter is winning - with 6 votes, and yes, he has a good case! I voted for Pedro's 2000 season cuz of the record-breaking ERA+, miniscule BR/9, and incredible K's per 9 innings. Certainly, Walter has the edge in wins, streaks and IP. Much of that can be attributed to his era, but the stats are eye-popping nonetheless. I'm far from etching anything in stone, and it's fun to compare, see all the differing opinions, and change my mind back and forth.
                  Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    For the life of me, I can't see any chinks in Walter's armour. His 1913 campaign was a masterpiece of the highest order. Joe Wood's 1912 was good, but not as good as Walter's. Also, you want to use Koufax's '65 season. Not '66.

                    Bill

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by [email protected]
                      For the life of me, I can't see any chinks in Walter's armour. His 1913 campaign was a masterpiece of the highest order. Joe Wood's 1912 was good, but not as good as Walter's. Also, you want to use Koufax's '65 season. Not '66.

                      Bill
                      It's not chinks in Walter so much, Bill; it's the presumed chinks in the armor of the majority of his opponents. If you assume the quality of the game is virtually the same in today vs. 1913, I'd think you almost have to go with Johnson. However, this will probably turn out to be another exercise in "strength of eras".

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Pedro 2000
                        285 ERA+
                        0.737 WHIP
                        5.31 H/9
                        .213 on-base percentage
                        .472 OPS against
                        6.64 BR/9
                        8.88 K/BB

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                        • #27
                          I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc.
                          ]
                          Code:
                          [B]------[COLOR=Red]Name----------yr.-----ERA+----Inn.---W-L----ShO---CG---Ratio*[/COLOR][/B]
                          
                          Pedro Martinez-----2000-----285-----217----18-6-----7-----4---7.37
                          Greg Maddux--------1995-----259-----209----19-2----10-----3---8.11
                          Walter Johnson-----1913-----258-----346----36-7----11----29---7.80
                          Bob Gibson---------1968-----258-----305----22-9----13----28---8.53
                          Mordecai Brown-----1906-----253-----277----26-6----10----27---8.53
                          Dwight Gooden------1985-----226-----276----24-4-----8----16---8.75
                          Grover Alexander---1915-----224-----376----31-10---12----36---8.42
                          Christy Mathewson--1909-----223-----275----25-6-----8----26---8.28
                          Lefty Grove--------1931-----218-----289----31-4-----4----27
                          Ron Guidry---------1978-----208-----273----25-3-----9----16---8.55
                          Addie Joss---------1908-----205-----325----24-11----9----29---8.06
                          Jack Taylor--------1902-----203-----324----22-11---10----33
                          Dean Chance--------1964-----199-----278----20-9----11----15
                          Spud Chandler------1943-----197-----253----20-4-----5----20
                          Hal Newhouser------1945-----194-----313----25-9-----8----29
                          Cy Young-----------1908-----194-----299----21-11----3----30---8.07
                          Mort Cooper--------1942-----193-----279----22-7----10----22
                          Carl Hubbell-------1933-----193-----309----23-12---10----22
                          Tom Seaver---------1971-----193-----286----20-10----4----21
                          Randy Johnson------2002-----190-----260----24-5-----8-----4
                          Ed Walsh-----------1910-----189-----369----18-10----7----33---8.20
                          Warren Spahn-------1953-----187-----266----23-7-----5----24
                          Lefty Gomez--------1934-----185-----281----26-5-----6----25
                          Luis Tiant---------1968-----185-----258----21-0-----9----19
                          Vida Blue----------1971-----183-----312----24-8-----8----24---8.68
                          Jack Coombs--------1910-----182-----353----31-9----13----35
                          Steve Carlton------1972-----182-----346----27-10----8----30
                          Rube Waddell-------1905-----180-----328----26-11----7----27
                          Orvie Overall------1909-----179-----285----20-11----9----23
                          Joe Wood-----------1912-----178-----344----34-5----10----35
                          Joe McGinnity------1904-----178-----408----35-8-----9----38
                          Dazzy Vance--------1924-----176-----309----28-6-----3----30
                          Dizzy Dean---------1934-----170-----324----30-7-----3----29
                          Stan Coveleski-----1917-----167-----298----19-14----9----24
                          Roger Clemens------1986-----166-----254----24-4-----1----10
                          Jack Chesbro-------1904-----158-----454----41-12----6----48---8.57
                          Denny McLain-------1968-----157-----336----31-6-----6----28---8.30
                          Sandy Koufax-------1965-----156-----335----26-8-----8----27---8.55
                          Dave McNally-------1968-----154-----273----22-10----5----18---8.42
                          Bob Feller---------1946-----145-----371----26-15---10----36
                          Nolan Ryan---------1972-----120-----284----19-16----9----20
                          Whitey Ford--------1961-----117-----283----25-4-----3----11
                          *ratio = (Hits allowed + walks) / (innings divided by 9).
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-29-2005, 07:38 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by [email protected]
                            I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc.
                            Well Bill, I'm sure that you will be pleased to know that according to the metric described at http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...4&postcount=12 Walter Johnson has the two best seasons since 1893, with 1912 being slightly better than 1913. However, subjective adjustments would not be inappropriate in judging his 1913 season to be slightly better (i.e. MVP, Triple Crown). However, his 1912 season did lead his 1913 season in strikeouts by 60 and his complete games by 5. It's a virtual tossup between the two seasons.
                            Dave Kent

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                            • #29
                              Actually, Greg Maddux's 1995 is better than his 1994. The only thing better in 1994 is the ERA+, which is 11 pts higher, but in '95 Maddux went 19-2 and his K's, BB's, H/9, and everything else is better than '94. The website I used to post the seasons is heavily slanted towards the best ERAs ever. But as Bill said, that should definitely not be the only stat to judge the best seasons ever. It should be the best combination of stats - and Walter's 1913 might very well be the best of them all, even accounting for any era adjustments. Pedro's ERA+, K's and BR/9 are better than Walter's, but Walt's no slouch in those stats either, and his big edge in Wins, SHO and CG might be enough to put him over the top.

                              It is a very interesting comparison. You know how I compare players from totally different eras - how would each have done in the other's era had they been born at the other player's time and learned that player's game? We just don't know - so who's better between Pedro's 2000 and Walter's 1913? Good arguments for both sides. I voted too soon without really thinking it through hard enough.
                              Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Grover's 1915 isn't a bad campagin ... 30 more IP then WJ, more CG's, more SHO's. His ERA+ though, is 30 points behind if i'm correct.
                                AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                                AL Pennant: 1982
                                NL Central Champions: 2011
                                NL Wild Card: 2008

                                "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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