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Greatest Pitching Season Ever

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  • #46
    Originally posted by leecemark
    --In fact, nobody has equaled Carlton's IP since that season. You obviously are going to point out that Carlton was working against a much more evolved and competitive league.
    Wood beat it that year, and next year, Niekro was real close in '79
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #47
      --oh, i must have meant in the nl .

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      • #48
        Pedro's 2000 was spectacular, especially for fans who place a lot of emphasis on ERA+. The biggest thing holding me back from selecting that season is the 217 IP. In this poll, he's going against several players with seasons of well over 300 IP - I'd be curious to see how Pedro would have held up in 2000 given an extra 100 innings of work and at least another 10 starts.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by DoubleX
          Pedro's 2000 was spectacular, especially for fans who place a lot of emphasis on ERA+. The biggest thing holding me back from selecting that season is the 217 IP. In this poll, he's going against several players with seasons of well over 300 IP - I'd be curious to see how Pedro would have held up in 2000 given an extra 100 innings of work and at least another 10 starts.
          And I'd be curious to see those other pitchers' numbers after 217 IP and if they were as good as Pedro's. To each his own.
          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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          • #50
            --Looking at where other pitchers were at 217 IP would tell us exactly nothing. Martinez got his 217 6-7 innings at a time over the course of 162 games. The 300+ innning guys would have gotten there in heavy workloads over 90 or 100 games.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by leecemark
              --Looking at where other pitchers were at 217 IP would tell us exactly nothing. Martinez got his 217 6-7 innings at a time over the course of 162 games. The 300+ innning guys would have gotten there in heavy workloads over 90 or 100 games.
              Yeah, I'd be curious to see how he'd hold up over 300 innings. The point is, neither Pedro, or any other pitcher today, has to pitch 300 innings to be great.
              Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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              • #52
                --Or, luckily for him, even 250. I'm certainly not disagreeing with the idea that Pedro is a great pitcher or that his best seasons are amoung the best ever. Just that he is the best or had the best indivual season (although I'm far more certain of the former than the latter).
                --I am mildly curious about how he would do if asked to pitch deeper into games and more innings over the season. Not too curious though, as there is enough information available on Pedro to say with confidence his effectiveness would slip with a heavier workload and with almost as much confidence that he simply couldn't do it on a regular basis. He would almost certainly spend even more time on the DL if asked to throw the 25-50 more pitches per game he would need to go the distance.
                --Martinez has as complete a package as any pitcher who has ever played the game, with the exception of stamina/durability. You really can't make a convincing argument that he could successfully take on a much larger work load if needed. That makes him less transportable to earlier eras than Clemens, Maddux or Johnson when we are comparing the current greats to the all time greats.

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                • #53
                  No Love for Leonard?

                  I went with Dutch Leonard just because it came out of nowhere for a good but not great pitcher

                  He did K 177 in that 224 IP, which is pretty amazing in deadball

                  There are minuses of course, one being the Federal League depletion....but I have to give him props for that season

                  Carlton's 72, Johnson's 13 and Cy Young's great season at 41 in 1908 I think is more impressive then his 1901 just for the age

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                  • #54
                    Dave and the others,

                    What would you think about Relative Onbase average as a good, relevant stat to use for evaluating how good a season a pitcher had.

                    What if we simply take their opponents onbase average, and divide it by the league's yearly onbase average? Would that not approximate WHIP, only better, since it includes "hit batters & balks"? I would think it would also include batters who reach base due to catcher's dropping a third strike, few as those occasions are.

                    Bill Burgess

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                    • #55
                      That might work Bill,

                      But one also has to consider the HR factor as well, maybe adjusted OPS?

                      Deadball pitchers have the walk and HRA already as an advantage over Carlton's 72 season for example.

                      We also need to keep in mind IP in regards to average IP of his competitors, so that the deadball pitchers don't look terrible as a result...ie Pedro and his 6 and out

                      Another thing is K's IMHO, have more to do with the batters then the pitcher in the history of baseball....deadball they rarley streuck out and one look at Heinie Groh's bat will tell you why. Today, they care less about K's if they hit 30+ Hrs

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                      • #56
                        JT,

                        If one divides a pitcher's opponent's Onbase ave, by that yr. league's ave, that should cover the problems you raised. That should allow us to compare pre 1920 with post '20 seasons.

                        We would then be comparing pitchers with the others of that individual yr.

                        We'd then take their % of their work against their league. I'd call it Pitcher's Relative Onbase Ave. It's all indexed, just like for hitters. I can't see the underlying flaw. Looks all good to me. Do you agree?

                        Bill

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                        • #57
                          I don't know if Mathewson necessarily separated himself from the pack in 1908 as much as some other pitchers have done, but he was 3rd in hits allowed per 9 IP, 3rd in opponents' batting average, 2nd in win% . . .
                          . . . and I believe first in about any other category you could think of
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Thought I'd bring this thread back I created long ago, since there's a debate brewing on the other thread about Gooden's 1985 vs. Walter's 1913. I did make a big oversight when I left out Carlton's 1972 on the poll, but it's closed now, so....

                            If you guys want to do a re-do of the poll, say the word.
                            Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by torez77
                              Thought I'd bring this thread back I created long ago, since there's a debate brewing on the other thread about Gooden's 1985 vs. Walter's 1913. I did make a big oversight when I left out Carlton's 1972 on the poll, but it's closed now, so....

                              If you guys want to do a re-do of the poll, say the word.
                              I'm learning to appreciate Pedro more, but I still go with Carlton 72.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by csh19792001
                                I'm learning to appreciate Pedro more, but I still go with Carlton 72.
                                Ya don't have to rub it in!
                                Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                                Comment

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