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Bobby Bonds vs Oscar Charleston: Greater baseball player?

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  • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
    Don't forget the black oriented papers just making up stats to sell tickets.
    Can't help your snarky self, can you?

    Comment


    • Write silly things, get a response.

      I'll be happy to provide the links. They're in the archives.
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      Comment


      • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
        Write silly things, get a response.

        I'll be happy to provide the links. They're in the archives.
        If that's true...mea culpa. I must admit in these...times...my trigger is on hair setting.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mdb View Post

          That's really interesting about the Ball State prof., further with the disagreements with a former NL player.
          One gets the sense that the Negro Leaguers were almost like WWE, in a sense. I don't mean that in a negative way, but in order to sell tickets they had to have stories like Cool Papa Bell being under the covers before the room was dark, etc. It made them larger than life, and made them sell tickets.
          It just makes drilling down deeper to find the truth more difficult.
          I guess it depends on what the goal is. There are many stories about he Negro Leaguers. Obviously, some of these stories can be hyperbolic and exaggerated. I think these stories were intended to illuminate how great these Negro Leaguers were. We now have a substantial database of Negro League stats so we can get a better understanding as how good they really were. This doesn't mean all the great stories are useless. They are part of baseball lore.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

            I guess it depends on what the goal is. There are many stories about he Negro Leaguers. Obviously, some of these stories can be hyperbolic and exaggerated. I think these stories were intended to illuminate how great these Negro Leaguers were. We now have a substantial database of Negro League stats so we can get a better understanding as how good they really were. This doesn't mean all the great stories are useless. They are part of baseball lore.
            I totally understand the desire to use hyperbole even to the point of calling someone "The Black Honus Wagner". I get it. There were ticket's to be sold and let's face it, I doubt they would just slap that label on any ol' person. Afterall there comes a prove it moment and you want to keep em coming back. Whether it was the players or newspaper writers I think their intentions were good and maybe in a slight way they were hoping to give future generations and idea of the type of player someone was.

            The irony of sorts though, is that through some of the more hyperbolic stories is only lends skepticism to those who question the stats or the league quality. It's like Uncle Rico throwing the football over them mountains. There's little chance to believe and I think most get it. I could say, Bo Jackson could throw a laser from the warning track, so and so hit a broken bat homer, this guy hit a bird and killed it while pitching. I mean crazy things happen and I have no doubt Negro Leaguers were amazing.

            I digress....I think you are correct in that many stories had levels of exaggeration but were based in truth in terms of how these guys' abilities were viewed at the time.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

              I guess it depends on what the goal is. There are many stories about he Negro Leaguers. Obviously, some of these stories can be hyperbolic and exaggerated. I think these stories were intended to illuminate how great these Negro Leaguers were. We now have a substantial database of Negro League stats so we can get a better understanding as how good they really were. This doesn't mean all the great stories are useless. They are part of baseball lore.
              Absolutely they are part of lore. And as Goslin fan pointed out, there is lore for white players and more modern players too.
              Ty Cobb sharpening his spikes just to slice them into someone for instance. Bit of truth, bit of lore, bit of everything that's part of the game's history.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mdb View Post

                Absolutely they are part of lore. And as Goslin fan pointed out, there is lore for white players and more modern players too.
                Ty Cobb sharpening his spikes just to slice them into someone for instance. Bit of truth, bit of lore, bit of everything that's part of the game's history.
                MDB seems you are fairly new here, would you mind posting your opinions here https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...op-5-favorites

                thanks in advance!

                Comment


                • A well researched article about Charleston and the infamous brawl in 1915.

                  https://sabr.org/journal/article/hot...on-myth-began/
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • Really terrific piece, HWR. Shades of Allen Iverson.

                    Not sure if this was posted elsewhere but it's in my bookmarks and it's worth everyone's time to check it out.

                    https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2...n/ideas/essay/

                    3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                    • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                      in the spirit of bumping great old threads I bump this one up. scottmitchell74, I'm surprised you haven't bumped up this thread yet. Just ahead up. My views on the Negro Leaguer players has greatly evolved since I started this thread. And I really do not know which player, Bonds or Charleston" was "better". Even back then I believed that. And that was not even the point of this thread.
                      This may be a really stupid question- but would Ichiro have been allowed to play back then? I know there was quite a bit of 'yellow peril' but I've never read or heard anything about it. Same goes for A-Rod- was he 'light' enough?
                      Say Anwar Sadat could field like Marion and run like Wills, would he have been allowed in? I recall a NOI Muslim, I think it was Louis Armstrong, extolling the virtues of a conversion, purely anecdotal and not really fit to print here.
                      Obbiously American Indians were allowed so I'm assuming same went for Mexicans and Hispanics.
                      FWIW, black players would've been just as accomplished, dominant even- as they were after integration, but there's no way to know what exactly would have went down. My only real opinion on the matter is BBRef's cynical, useless, offensive inclusion of the incomplete NeL stats on leaderboards, right at the height of some seriously spoopy mass hysteria and rikki lake/jenny jones political atmosphere. I mean, yeah, the 19th century guys are on there, especially ruining the pitcher boards, but it was just a matter of fact. It wasnt a big giant douche to wash down a turd sandwich, so to speak, respectively.
                      I'm inclined to think King Kelly, Buck Ewing, Honus Wagner, Babe Ruth etc were legit greats. But there had to have been black counterparts. But who knows. Just read this whole thread and my fave poster is the guy who takes one player, unanimously considered the GOAT, and defends him like hes megan markle. Any notion that Babe was Mantle to someone's Mays and hooboy. Not being sarcastic because honestly, Babe is the best but I think theres a lot of that fear on one side and then a lot of conjecture on the other to right past wrongs. Feel like thats a duh conclusion tho.
                      Last edited by Calabasas; 09-22-2022, 01:20 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                        I guess it depends on what the goal is. There are many stories about he Negro Leaguers. Obviously, some of these stories can be hyperbolic and exaggerated. I think these stories were intended to illuminate how great these Negro Leaguers were. We now have a substantial database of Negro League stats so we can get a better understanding as how good they really were. This doesn't mean all the great stories are useless. They are part of baseball lore.
                        True, no disrespect meant for blacks who never had their chance in the early years in MLB.
                        There were some who were the equal and better than some white MLB players.
                        But how do we rank a black star who never played MLB..
                        Of course in fact was not the fault of Charleston, that he never played MLB and a shame.
                        Have to deal with facts, we have no way of knowing, was he better than Bonds, who some did see and we have accurate stats on him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Calabasas View Post

                          This may be a really stupid question- but would Ichiro have been allowed to play back then? I know there was quite a bit of 'yellow peril' but I've never read or heard anything about it. Same goes for A-Rod- was he 'light' enough?
                          Say Anwar Sadat could field like Marion and run like Wills, would he have been allowed in? I recall a NOI Muslim, I think it was Louis Armstrong, extolling the virtues of a conversion, purely anecdotal and not really fit to print here.
                          Obbiously American Indians were allowed so I'm assuming same went for Mexicans and Hispanics.
                          FWIW, black players would've been just as accomplished, dominant even- as they were after integration, but there's no way to know what exactly would have went down. My only real opinion on the matter is BBRef's cynical, useless, offensive inclusion of the incomplete NeL stats on leaderboards, right at the height of some seriously spoopy mass hysteria and rikki lake/jenny jones political atmosphere. I mean, yeah, the 19th century guys are on there, especially ruining the pitcher boards, but it was just a matter of fact. It wasnt a big giant douche to wash down a turd sandwich, so to speak, respectively.
                          I'm inclined to think King Kelly, Buck Ewing, Honus Wagner, Babe Ruth etc were legit greats. But there had to have been black counterparts. But who knows. Just read this whole thread and my fave poster is the guy who takes one player, unanimously considered the GOAT, and defends him like hes megan markle. Any notion that Babe was Mantle to someone's Mays and hooboy. Not being sarcastic because honestly, Babe is the best but I think theres a lot of that fear on one side and then a lot of conjecture on the other to right past wrongs. Feel like thats a duh conclusion tho.
                          As far as American Indians in relation to Hispanics off the top of my head Esteban Bellan, Dolf Luque, Carlos Moran, Jose Rodriguez, Mike Gonzalez... McGraw and Griffith were very keen on Latin American talent. I believe Bobby Estalella was regarded with suspicion more than anyone but nothing was ever done about it. Bernardo Baro doesn’t look very black and he played in the Negro Leagues so beats me who passes by?

                          If you want to learn about 19th c. black players there are names out there. The Williams clan, Walker, Stovey, Frank Grant. Look for up the middle defenders- CF, SS/2B and the battery. That’s where the best players are going to be. Check out the Page Fence Giants, Cuban X Giants and their various iterations; look for teams with Sol White, Bud Fowler, Home Run Johnson- they’re the big guns that get hired to run clubs and bring in other guys.​
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

                            True, no disrespect meant for blacks who never had their chance in the early years in MLB.
                            There were some who were the equal and better than some white MLB players.
                            But how do we rank a black star who never played MLB..
                            Of course in fact was not the fault of Charleston, that he never played MLB and a shame.
                            Have to deal with facts, we have no way of knowing, was he better than Bonds, who some did see and we have accurate stats on him.
                            How about just NOT ranks players anymore?
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                              How about just NOT ranks players anymore?
                              Say what?!

                              That's like 99.91 % of what baseball fans do.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                                How about just NOT ranks players anymore?
                                We don’t all feel comfortable that Turkey Stearnes > Max Carey or Dick Lundy > Dick Bartell?
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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