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  • Originally posted by [email protected]
    Randy,

    Let's not be naive. I thought my point was loud and clear. Francis Richter was an old-school deadballer, who didn't appreciate that the owners were using the Babe to double their net worths, and took out on poor Babe what he would have liked to take out on the owners. He was scape-goating Babe! He didn't like Babe at all. He gave away his bottom line when he wrote, "In this event the brief reign of Babe Ruth, though highly profitable to the New York Club, will be memorable only for its evil effect upon the sport as a whole, as his constant exploitation as a home run hitter stimulated a home run craze in both public and players that led to temporary abandonment of scientific play; and militated vastly against team work and discipline; and, worst of all, made a popular hero of a specialty player who lacks every qualification of a truly great player." (Sporting News, July 6, 1922, Casual Comment column)

    Bill, I respect your opinion and knowledge. I am not being naive about anything. I don't understand why you are not addressing something I've mentioned now for the third time. Richter's original comment regarding Frazee was just plain wrong. I'm not questioning that YOU understand Frazee and other owners often looked out for their image. I'm questioning why you aren't acknowledging RICHTER'S lack of understanding this at the time he wrote this --- >
    but proved such an insubordinate member of the team that Boston was glad to sell him to the New York Club.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-07-2005, 11:08 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
      Frazee blaming Ruth for Boston's 6th place finish in 1919 is just plain moronic, and nearly as stupid as the actual trade itself. He was the only reason most fans came out to see games after their horrible start, which rendered the rest of their season meaningless. Where would they have finished without Ruth; and why did they finish 6th that year? The answer is simple.

      [/i] them anything.
      You got that right, Harry was full of it.

      Let me see if I can understand Harry, putting the blame on Ruth for the poor finish by the Bosox in 1919. Ruth was 9-5 as a part time pitcher.

      Babe Ruth in 1919, where he ranked as a hitter.

      Batting average------6th
      Doubles-------------5th
      Triples--------------8th
      Walks--------------2nd

      First in all of the following
      Home runs
      RBI's
      Runs
      total bases
      slugging
      OBA
      OPS
      extra base hits
      ISO
      RCAA
      runs created
      total average

      Thats where Ruth finished in 1919, not only in the AL but also the NL, all of baseball.

      Lets not forget this sales pitch by Harry, something else he threw into the mix to justify getting rid of Ruth. Ruth suffered a serious sprain to his knee and Harry played this to the hilt. He claimed that this injury might soon turn Ruth into a cripple, he might not be playing that long.

      Well, I went to the archives, N.Y.Times, Boston Globe and looked at some box scores after that injury. Ruth played many games including both ends of some double headers, show no ill effects. With the Yanks in 1920, the knee did not hamper him, Harry blew this one. That sale changed the whole landscape of the baseball world. the once mighty Bosox and the lowly Yanks changed places in the baseball world also aided by the Bosox later dumping more of Boston's fine players, to the Yanks.

      Come on Harry, Ruth was a bad boy, deserved any punishment that came his way, but his fault for the 1919 showing by the Red Sox, I'm not buying.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
        You got that right, Harry was full of it.

        Let me see if I can understand Harry, putting the blame on Ruth for the poor finish by the Bosox in 1919. Ruth was 9-5 as a part time pitcher.

        Babe Ruth in 1919, where he ranked as a hitter.

        Batting average------6th
        Doubles-------------5th
        Triples--------------8th
        Walks--------------2nd
        The only thing you didn't mention is that he outhomered the entire Boston team in 10 of the next 12 seasons after he was sold. Well done.


        btw: Barrow was a complete egoist. He never really accepted or admired Ruth for what he was. He was a smart baseball man, but always thought players should be subservient to management, which wasn't Babe. When asked who the best ballplayer was, Barrow would always say that Cobb was the finest hitter, Ruth was the greatest slugger and gate attraction, but Wagner was the best ballplayer (Barrow discovered Wagner and never let anyone forget it).

        It took Barrow some time to get used to Ruth's home runs. In September of 1919, this inaccurate quote belonged to him:

        "After Babe has satisfied himself by hanging up a record for home runs that will never be touched, he will become a .400 hitter. He wants to establish a record of 30 or 35 home runs this year, and when he has done that he will start getting a lot of base hits that will win us more games than his home runs. He will just meet the ball and hit it to left field as well as Ty Cobb. He will be content with his record because it will be far and away out of the reach of any other player the game is likely to develop."
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-07-2005, 11:20 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
          The only thing you didn't mention is that he outhomered the entire Boston team in 10 of the next 12 seasons after he was sold. Well done.
          well he hit .393, it wasnt that inaccurate
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-07-2005, 11:20 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
            I don't understand why you are not addressing something I've mentioned now for the third time. Richter's original comment regarding Frazee was just plain wrong. I'm questioning why you aren't acknowledging RICHTER'S lack of understanding this at the time he wrote this --- >
            Randy,

            I don't know how much more I CAN acknowledge that exact point. I have already said that Richter was wrong. Just plain, dead-wrong.. Richter was feeling betrayed at every turn by the owners. He was SCAPE-GOATING RUTH. If you know what that means, it means he was wrong. He was blaming Babe for the Red Sox when Babe WAS the Red Sox. I can not say this any more clearly.

            I have even written a post called Babe in 1918-19, WoW. I told how only Babe Ruth could have achieved what he did in those 2 years.

            Richter did change his opinion of Ruth the next year, 1923, if you read my complete piece above.

            Bill
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            I went back to post #178 and added some brief commentery to clarify my beliefs on Frazee's specific blaming Babe, and Mr. Richter repeating those absurdly, outrageous blaming of Babe.
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-16-2005, 02:34 PM.

            Comment


            • Babe's 2nd wife, Claire had some choice words for Ed Barrow in her 1959 autobiography, "The Babe and I". Here are a few of her choice morsels.

              "Barrow, as Babe's manager in Boston, and later as general manager of the Yankees, was his particular bete noir. Here was enmity from the start, with no quarter on either side over a quarter century. Huggins had to handle Babe at Babe's most riotous. Hug never succeeded. Ruppert was a constant foe at contract time and always backed Huggins, despite Houston's espousal of the Babe's rather weak case. Landis, as Commissioner of Baseball, was a cruel and ruthless judge. McCarthy exerted no discipline, just implacable loathing which was reciprocated.

              I do not see them all as blackly as they appeared to Babe. I think both Huggins and Ruppert tried very hard to understand their lucrative problem child. (pp. 61)

              "But Barrow did one thing for Babe Ruth. Barrow took Babe, who might well have become the greatest pitcher of all time, and made of him the greatest hitter of all time. And that took one thing Barrow had in abundance, courage. Taking Babe from the mound is not the obvious move it seems. It was obvious he was a remarkable hitter and even before Barrow came on the scene Carrigan and Barry occasionally took advantage of an opportunity to use Babe's bat more than once very four days by giving him an occasional job at first base or in the outfield. But neither man ever dared think of Babe as anything but a pitcher. Taking Babe off the mound was like telling Paderewski that he should try the violin. (pp. 62-63)

              If for nothing else, the Babe and his friends can always be grateful to Barrow for having the courage of his convictions. And, frankly, I can think of nothing else to be grateful to Ed for. (pp. 64)

              But the Babe always felt that the basic problem he faced in dealing with Ruppert was Ed Barrow.

              Ed, tough as a hickory nut, wise in the knowledge that baseball law made Ruth helpless in all salary fights, was always set against big salaries for Babe. Ed's friends said Barrow was without rancor in the matter. He was merely doing his job, which was to run the Yankees as economically as possible.

              Babe felt Barrow's attitude was personal. They had fought in Boston and again in New York. They were bitter fights and the men hated each other. (pp. 142)
              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-15-2009, 01:53 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sultan_1895-1948
                It took Barrow some time to get used to Ruth's home runs. In September of 1919, this inaccurate quote belonged to him:

                "After Babe has satisfied himself by hanging up a record for home runs that will never be touched, he will become a .400 hitter. He wants to establish a record of 30 or 35 home runs this year, and when he has done that he will start getting a lot of base hits that will win us more games than his home runs. He will just meet the ball and hit it to left field as well as Ty Cobb. He will be content with his record because it will be far and away out of the reach of any other player the game is likely to develop."

                Originally posted by blackout805
                well he hit .393, it wasnt that inaccurate



                lol, true. Its pretty amusing that he would think Ruth would be satisfied with hitting 30 dongs.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by blackout805
                  well he hit .393, it wasnt that inaccurate
                  Close doesn't count, but that would have been the topper, all that Ruth did with the bat and also to have had a .400 season. With 4 more hits that season he would have batted .400.

                  Comment


                  • Randy/Joe,

                    I specifically printed the 2nd Francis Richter piece below for your benefits. Mr. Richter, following the 1923 season, in which Babe hit for average, showed what he could do for average, if he stopped going for homers every time up. No, the Babe could not hit .400. Read the following carefully.

                    (Sporting News, October 4, 1923, pp. 4, column 5, Casual Comment column)

                    "One of the biggest factors in the complete reversal of the Yankee team form was Babe Ruth, who amply made good his promise of reform made last winter, while still smarting under the ignominy of his pitifully inadequate World Series showing. This reformation, consistently carried out, embraced both conduct on & off the field and general play. His general conduct has been exemplary, not containing even one rebuke, while his entire method of play has been both revolutionized and his conception of his place in and duties to the scene of baseball has been changed and vastly enlarged. Ruth has become tracable, obedient to his manager's slightest wish, and a team player of the first rank, always willing to subordinate himself to the common good."

                    "Instead of confining himself to his former specialty of home run hitting (He hit 41 in '23) -- Ruth has all season resorted to every style of batting suitable to the occasion, not even excepting bunting: and consequently has proven one of the greatest batsman in the Amercan League, running a season-long neck-and-neck race with Harry Heilmann of Detroit for the batting leadership. In addition his fielding has been both accurate and brilliant, and his base running excellent (17-21). Altogether a more striking and successful change was never witnessed in a star player between two seasons." (Sporting News, October 4, 1923, pp. 4, column 5, Casual Comment column)
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-08-2005, 01:12 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
                      Close doesn't count, but that would have been the topper, all that Ruth did with the bat and also to have had a .400 season. With 4 more hits that season he would have batted .400.
                      Hardly seems right that he could lose the batting title in '23, hitting .393, and then turn around and win it by 19 points with a measley .378 in '24. Thats baseball folks!h

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by [email protected]
                        Randy/Joe,

                        I specifically printed the 2nd Francis Richter piece below for your benefits. Mr. Richter, following the 1923 season, in which Babe hit for average, showed what he could do for average, if he stopped going for homers every time up. No, the Babe could not hit .400. Read the following carefully.
                        Thats a nice piece Bill. '23 was nice turnaround from his disgraceful '22.
                        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-16-2005, 01:53 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Anyone want to chat about Ty?

                          Comment


                          • I would like any and all details you have regarding Cobb and Frank Baker. Wasn't there a time when Baker was sick and Cobb came to care for him. That happened years after their playing days, but would not have happened, had they had a feud like many thought. Any details on that Bill?

                            Also, the spike sharpening prank in the dugout, where Ty wasn't even there. But a writer wouldn't have had a story without Ty's name, so he threw him in the story, resulting in the ugly rumor.

                            Pretty sure Ty admits to only spiking two people intentionally during his career. I know one was Mays I think, for throwing at him constantly. Cobb drag bunted so Mays would have to cover the bag. Instead of stopping on the bag for the throw, Mays continued on into the first base coach's box. Ty ignored first and went straight for him. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

                            Anyway, always up for talkin' about Cobb

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                              Thats a nice piece Bill. '23 was nice turnaround from his disgraceful '22.
                              If by "disgraceful" you mean "a career year for almost anyone else in the game", then I agree with your semantic interpretation of the word, Sultan.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                                I would like any and all details you have regarding Cobb and Frank Baker. Wasn't there a time when Baker was sick and Cobb came to care for him. That happened years after their playing days, but would not have happened, had they had a feud like many thought. Any details on that Bill?
                                I believe the incident to which you're referring with Frank Baker occurred the last time Ty visited the Hall of Fame. Frank got sick and Ty told him to drink some whiskey. He did and felt much better. After Ty died, a letter arrived to him from Frank, looking forward to seeing Ty again at some function. They had become buddies.

                                Ty also denied the spike sharpening incident, but I don't know. Sounds an awful lot like a stunt Ty would do. Others, with no motive to lie, allege Ty did do it once, for laughs. Dramatic effect. Who knows? I don't.

                                In Carl Mays book, he shows a photo of his old scar, and it's a beaut. Ty did do it to him the way you discribe. For throwing at him. For some reason, I like Carl Mays a lot.

                                Bill
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-16-2005, 01:52 PM.

                                Comment

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