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  • I'm pretty sure that it was some Detroit bench players who did the spike sharpening stunt. They went and got a few lawnmower blades from the groundskeeper, that sat in the dugout pretending to be sneaky. The team they were playing had to walk right across their dugout to get to theirs, so when they came, they played it off like they were sharpening their spikes.

    I believe Cobb stated in his book that he was not even there, and that it was some writer who threw his name in the story, just to sell papers.


    Yeah, Carl Mays was an interesting cat. Have you read the book "The Pitch That Killed?" Pretty good one.

    Also, the other guy that Cobb admits to trying to spike intentionally I think was another pitcher. Can't remember his name, but there was a pass ball with Cobb on second. The backstop was way too short to try and score from second, but Cobb hit third and kept going. The toss to the pitcher came in plenty of time, and he was standing there waiting. Cobb came barreling down the line and the pitcher literally turned around and ran, letting Cobb score easily. lol, how classic is that.

    Comment


    • was ty cobb's mother 12 years old when she married?

      and how old was the father at that time?
      Last edited by Brian McKenna; 12-16-2005, 07:12 AM.

      Comment


      • Yes, that is true, according to my research.

        William Herschel Cobb (father): Born: February 23, 1863

        Amanda (Chitwood) Cobb (mother): Born: January 15, 1871

        Married: 1883

        The story went that Amanda's Dad wasn't pleased to let his young daughter marry so young, and extracted a promise from William Cobb, not to "spliced" his daughter until she reached the age of 16. Presumeably, William kept his promise.

        Ty was born December 18, 1886, when Amanda was 16 years old.

        Not all Ty researchers agree with my findings. Wesley Frick believes they married much later, several years, February 11, 1886

        Comment


        • he was the school master and she was the pupil - sounds like an old story

          Comment


          • If anyone wants to do any more of Ty/Babe, this is the proper place to fight.

            Comment


            • player for the team

              ty was the greatest. but perhaps the greatest for himself. his teams never won the championship and his team mates always complained he hit for his own average. if we are to measure a player on his greatness there is maybe an interesting distinction: how well he did for himself, and how well he did for his teams. the yankees with ruth and the tigers with cobb are no comparison whether you are hitting a live ball, a dead ball, or a ping pong ball. i see a thread in discussion for players who not only were absolutely great themselves, but also made their teams great, candidates: jeter, rose, morgan, ripken, john mcgraw, i'm sure there are more. but if we consider what ty did on a team against him, he was surely the greatest of all time. it was just a shame he was not a team player in a team sport. if he were, i'm sure his numbers would be even better, and the case would be closed. (see next case: a-rod).

              Comment


              • i wholeheartedly disagree that ty wasn't a team player - he grew to manage the club for some time - "he hit for his own average" - don't quite get it - sounds like envy to me - i wasn't aware that ty let down at all on the field to the detriment of his team - i must have missed something in my reading

                as far as great players making their team greater - sounds like individuals touting their favorites and trashing their least favorites - there is absolutely no factual basis in most cases to make that argument pro or con on any player - are you saying alex rodriguez doesn't put out for the yankees or whatever team he is on but jeter, rose, morgan, ripken, john mcgraw did - what is the basis of the argument - sounds like bar talk - a lot of chatter with little substance - brooks robinson's teams won 10-15 games more per year on average than ripken's - does that mean ripken is trash?

                Comment


                • ty was a manager, ofcourse he played for the team, he had to teach heillman how to hit for crying out loud

                  Comment


                  • Brothers,

                    It is for precisely these occasions that I created my Ty Cobb Thread. I spent a VERY long time to address these precise issues.

                    Yes, during his career, some of Ty's critics had a short list of beefs with him.
                    Since he had made himself invulnerable on his hitting and base-running, his critics had to really hunt for chinks in his armour. And some of those they came up with werer:

                    1. His defense. Truth: His D. was very, very good, but the AL had 3 were were better still, preventing his admirers from calling Ty "great". (Speaker, Milan, Felsch)

                    2. His arm was not great. Truth: He had a fine OF arm, but ruined its power around late 1918, messing with trick pitches.

                    3. He was out for himself. Not a team player. They could not explain how a great player shining did not help the team. His objectives were hits, runs, winning games.

                    4. Not a good manager. Truth: He was absolutely brilliant, tactically/strategicly, but had rookies, aging vets, and he wasn't a pitching coach. He could/did teach hitting/running/fielding.

                    Good brothers. I have 2 files that address these issues.

                    1. Did All of Ty Cobb's team mates Hate Him?
                    2. Ty as Manager

                    There is a wealth of information in these files that I had to hunt to the death for details to bring you accurate info. Be sure you don't neglect to read the quotes at the bottom. After these guys had a long time to reflect put their real feelings on tape.

                    Bill Burgess

                    How could a manager not play for the team? Especially knowing how he benched himself whenever his bench warmers were hitting well. Once, in 1925, his entire OF was hitting over .400. I think it was Heilmann, Ty and Wingo. Another time was in 1926, but that time it was Heilmann, Fothergill and Manush.
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-28-2005, 04:13 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by christian gentleman
                      ty was the greatest. but perhaps the greatest for himself.it was just a shame he was not a team player in a team sport. if he were, i'm sure his numbers would be even better, and the case would be closed. (see next case: a-rod).
                      Not a team player, all those base hits, all those stolen bases, his ability to find some way to get the upper hand, find a weakness, gain any small advantage that would be a plus for his team.

                      Thats the kind of guy you would want on your team, nothing selfish about Ty, he did all that he could to put his team in the win column.

                      Comment


                      • Completely agree Joe. Ty would have cut off his arm if it meant winning a Championship. He did all he could both on and off the field to give himself the best chance to succeed, thus giving his team the best chance of winning.

                        Baseball is about individual competetitions within a team concept. Could Ty have been a better teammate, perhaps so, if you expect perfection across the board. He was what he was: human. Instead of considering what his teams didn't do WITH him, think of where his teams would have been WITHOUT him. His competitive nature and style of play had to influence everyone else to a degree, whether they had his talent or not. That type of leadership isn't something that can be taught or described in a book or formula. It's something between ballplayers that either exists or it doesn't; a silent respect that comes as a result of loyalty, admiration, and envy. Ty most certainly had that from everyone in the league, let alone his own teammates who got to watch his brilliance day in and day out. I'd take Ty on my team any day.

                        Comment


                        • Scroll to hear what others said about Ty.


                          Ty as Manager: Scroll to the bottom to hear what his former players had to say of him.
                          http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/ana...burgess09.html
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-29-2005, 03:36 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Cobb/Wagner:

                            I thought we'd start off with a few obligatory, traditional stats:

                            --------Rel.BA---Rel.Onbase---Rel.Slg.--OPB+--CareerWS--TPR-----Blackink--Greyink
                            Cobb----1.34------1.26--------1.40-----167----722------90.6----150------417
                            Wagner--1.22------1.17--------1.32------150----655-----102.7-----109------363

                            ----------------BA-------Onbase------Slg.
                            Cobb, home----.370-------.438-------.515
                            Cobb, away----.363-------.428-------.510

                            Wagner, home--.335-------.378-------.480
                            Wagner, away--.320-------.355-------.452

                            When it comes to longevity, we don't have to analyze deeply. Ty lasted longer and had more of everything. Rate stats would not be fair to Honus however. His time period, 1901-10, featured the deadest ball on record, and Honus had the longest fences on record. His ballpark up to 1908 had foul lines 400 feet out.

                            When it comes to peer opinions, Ty takes the honors, hands down. 254 prominent BB figures chose Ty, 34 chose Honus. Here is a listing of their respective supporters.
                            Cobb, Ruth, Wagner Supporters: 254 Ty supporters, 28 Babe supporters, 34 Honus supporters.
                            http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/Cob...supporters.xls

                            What Ty's supporters actually said.
                            http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/ana...burgess10.html


                            1. Honus was the greatest all-around fielder baseball has yet produced, IMHO.
                            But he was never considered the final word at SS defense, and was always considered below Herman Long, Bobby Wallace, Glenn Wright and Ozzie Smith, strictly for SS D. But better than them in over-all D.

                            2. Ty was always considered more than a little better at the plate, and on the bags. On the bags, Cobb was supreme, the best BB has yet produced, with no apologies to Hamilton, Carey, Brock, Henderson or Wills. The Supreme disrupter, above Lange or J. Robinson.

                            3. Wagner's league was weaker than Cobb's until 1908, but Wagner sustained a higher level of league dominance for longer.

                            4. Cobb had a more dramatic psychological effect on his opposition, but Wagner had a better harmonizing effect in the clubhouse.

                            5. From the historical record, many, many more great players would have rathered to have Cobb on board than Honus, including Collins, Speaker, Sisler, Mack, Simmons, Cochrane, Grove, etc. People who had seen him up close and personal, and been on teams with him. My files have many who had seen Wagner for an extended time, knew what he could do, and called Cobb better, in VERY direct terms. I can provided some cool quotes, if requested.

                            Overall, Ty's superiority on the bags, and at the plate, more than compensates for any deficit a fantastic SS can create afield, over a very, very good CF, the best base-runner, and a considerably better hitter.

                            And Wagner would be the 2nd player I'd pick in a draft. Walter Johnson my 3rd. It would just kill me to NOT have all 3 on my team.
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Historical Awards Wons:

                            It's true that Cobb only played from 1905-28, but history has judged him in direct competition with all players from 1870's till now. His "competition" was everyone.

                            Ty won 3 amazing competitive polls/surveys in 1931, 1936, 1942.

                            1931 --- Cobb 55 points, Wagner 38 points, Ruth 17 points, Lajoie 13, Collins 12, Keeler 7, Simmons 6, Speaker 4, Joe Jackson 3, Sisler 3, Klein 3, Hornsby 2, Parent 2, Ferguson, Chase & Terry = 1 point. -- 1931 Poll, conducted by the Philadelphia Public Ledger, C. William Duncan. July, 1933;

                            (Voters: Connie Mack, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Wilbert Robinson, Dan Howley, Bucky Harris, Joe McCarthy, Bill McKechnie, Kid Gleason, Walter Johnson, Jim Burke, Gabby Street. Tabulation went thusly: 1st place vote = 5 points, 2nd place = 4 votes, 3rd place = 3 points, 2nd place = 2 points, 1st place = 1 point.
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            1936 --- Original Hall of Fame vote, Feb. 2, 1936, votes counted at the Commissioner's office in Chicago, IL. 226 Total Voters;

                            Cobb 222, Wagner 215, Ruth 215, Mathewson 205, Johnson 189, Lajoie 146, Speaker 133, Young 111, Hornsby 105, Cochrane 80, Sisler 77, E. Collins 60, J. Collins 58, Alexander 55, Gehrig 51 --
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            1942 --- Sporting News, April 2, 1942, 102 former players, managers.

                            Cobb 60, Wagner 17, Ruth 11, Hornsby 2, 10 players received 1 vote each: Delahanty, Gehrig, Speaker, DiMaggio, Ott, Sisler, E. Collins, Johnson, Mathewson, Jerry Denny.
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            It wasn't until 1950, that Babe won his very first poll/survey ever.
                            1950 Associated Press poll, Feb. 4, 1950, NYC ---

                            Ruth 253, Cobb 116, Gehrig 8, W. Johnson 7, DiMaggio 5, Wagner 2, Mathewson 2.
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Ty's Decline Phase: Longevity Case:

                            You're hitting where it hurts, in TC's decline phase, but that's alright. Yes, Mr. Cobb was dominant up to 1919, due to the ball favored his particular speed/brains type style. But while he couldn't dominate after 1919, he continued to be one of the top 3-5 players in the league, after Ruth, Sisler, Heilmann.

                            Let me see if I can cobble an argument together in his defense. What is throwing you off-track Adam, is that you're obviously looking at Ty's page in the record book and seeing no bold-faced black numbers jumping at you after the age of 32. But what that book doesn't show is 2nds or 3rds, which would be relevant to the discussion. If you could see those 2nds and 3rds, which show he did keep pace somewhat with the league in '21, '22 and 25, you might have seen the numbers below.

                            1921----2nd (BA, OBP, TPR), 3rd (SLG), 4th (SB, T), 5th (R), 7th (EBH), 8th (H, TB), 9th (D, HR, RBI)
                            1922-----2nd (H, BA, OBP, D, T), 4th (TPR), 6th (SLG, RBI, EBH), 7th (R),
                            1923-----6th (D), 8th (BA, H), 9th (OBP, R)
                            1924-----2nd (R), 3rd (BA, H), 4th (TB, SB), 5th (W), 7th (T), 8th (TB, D), 9th (OBP)
                            1925-----2nd (OBP), 3rd (SLG), 4th (BA), 5th (TPR), 7th (T, EBH), 8th (RBI)
                            1926-----6th (BA)
                            1927-----3rd (SB), 5th (BA, OBP), 6th (R), 10th (RBI)
                            1928-----6th (BA)

                            Other stats:
                            Times on base: 9th in '21, 3rd in '22, 8th in '23, 2nd in '24, 6th in '27. Baseball Reference gives many other exotic stats which are less sexy so I don't feel like posting stuff like OPS, adj. OPS, Runs Created, Power/Speed Number, At Bat per SO.

                            So, even without league-leading black ink, he did hobble around with top 5 grey ink. He had had a debilitating injury in 1920, resulting from an OF collision, and missed a huge number of games in 1920.

                            He was made manager of his team in 1921, and we know from his interviews that that was where the lion's share of his attention went. He also benched himself quite often to play his other OFers, Veach, Manush, Wingo, Fothergill, and Flagstad. He saw his future in managing, and he had also lost around 2 steps getting down to 1st.

                            So those are the valid reasons he couldn't dominate the league anymore.
                            1. He had aged and slowed down.
                            2. The game wasn't designed to favor his type style anymore.
                            3. He was focusing on managing.
                            4. He was giving himself less playing time to develop his young talent. (Something Rose would have done well to emulate.)
                            5. He was still one of the top 5 premier players in the league, though not the intimidating dominator of yesteryear.
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Ty's Grey Ink after 30:

                            1920 - 04 points
                            1921 - 21
                            1922 - 22
                            1923 - 12
                            1924 - 19
                            1925 - 12
                            1926 - 04
                            1927 - 13
                            1928 - 28
                            -----------
                            200 Grey Ink points (almost half of his career "grey ink" total.)
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Batting Ave.
                            1920-.334-10
                            1921-.389-2
                            1922-.401-2
                            1923-.340-8
                            1925-.378-4
                            1927-.357-5
                            --------------------------------
                            % of League BA.

                            1906 - 126% - 6th place
                            1907 - 141% - 1st place
                            1908 - 135% - 1st place
                            1909 - 154% - 1st place
                            1910 - 158% - 1st place
                            1911 - 153% - 1st place
                            1912 - 154% - 1st place
                            1913 - 151% - 1st place
                            1914 - 148% - 1st place
                            1915 - 148% - 1st place
                            1916 - 155% - 2nd place
                            1917 - 154% - 1st place
                            1918 - 150% - 1st place
                            1919 - 143% - 1st place
                            ----------------------------------------
                            1920 - 117% - 10th place
                            1921 - 133% - 2nd place
                            1922 - 140% - 2nd place
                            1923 - 120% - 8th place
                            1924 - 116% - 11th place
                            1925 - 129% - 4th place
                            1926 - 120% - 11th place
                            1927 - 125% - 5th place
                            1928 - 114% - 13th place
                            -----------------------------------------------
                            OnBase Ave.
                            1920-.416-6
                            1921-.452-2
                            1922-.462-3
                            1923-.413-9
                            1924-.418-9
                            1925-.468-2
                            1927-.439-5

                            SLG. AVE.
                            1921-.596-3
                            1922-.565-6
                            1925-.598-3
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Ty's MVP's Post-1920, According to Mathew Sounder's PCA stat system:
                            1920 - 24 (Ruth)
                            1921 - 6 (Ruth)
                            1922 - 5 (K. Williams)
                            1923 - 14 (Ruth)
                            1924 - 7 (Ruth)
                            1925 - 5 (Simmons)
                            1926 - 66 (Ruth)
                            1927 - 13 (Gehrig)
                            ------------------------------------
                            How Ty/Honus did before/after the age of 30:
                            Code:
                             Relative Slg. Ave.
                            
                            -----Ty----------------Honus
                            1906--1.18--age 19
                            1907--1.44
                            1908--1.49
                            1909--1.58
                            1910--1.65
                            1911--1.64-----------1898--1.16--age 24
                            1912--1.64-----------1899--1.31
                            1913--1.54-----------1900--1.50
                            1914--1.50-----------1901--1.35
                            1915--1.42-----------1902--1.38
                            1916--1.44-----------1903--1.41
                            
                            ------------------------------------Decline phase, age 30
                            
                            1917--1.72-----------1904--1.54
                            1918--1.57-----------1905--1.44
                            1919--1.39-----------1906--1.39
                            1920--1.13-----------1907--1.59
                            1921--1.42-----------1908--1.70
                            1922--1.39-----------1909--1.45
                            1923--1.18-----------1910--1.21
                            1924--1.11-----------1911--1.34
                            1925--1.43-----------1912--1.31
                            1926--1.25-----------1913--1.06
                            1927--1.14-----------1914--0.93
                            1928--1.03-----------1915--1.23
                            ---------------------1916--1.08
                            ---------------------1917--0.86 - 74 games
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Did Ty Cobb Age Well?

                            A comparison of Ty with Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins and Zach Wheat, 1921-1927.

                            1921
                            Code:
                            -----G----AB---H--D--T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--128--507--197-37-16-12-124-101--56--19-1.33(2)-1.42-167--26--4.8(2)
                            TS--132--506--183-52-14--3-107--75--68--12-1.19----1.26-146--27--3.5
                            EC--139--526--177-20-10--2--79--58--66--11-1.13----1.01-146--24--4.0(3)
                            ZW--148--568--182-31-10-14--91--85--44--19-1.05----1.16-120--23--0.8
                            
                            
                            1922
                            -----G----AB---H--D--T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--137--526--211-42-16--4--99--99--55--24-1.40(2)-1.39-172--29--4.4(4)
                            TS--131--426--161-48--8-11--85--71--77--11-1.28----1.46-178--30--5.0(2)
                            EC--154--598--194-20-12--1--92--69--73--16-1.10----0.98-115--25--3.1
                            ZW--152--600--201-29-12-16--92-112--45--22-1.11----1.20-129--27--1.3
                            
                            
                            1923
                            -----G----AB---H--D--T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--145--556--189-40--7--6-103--88--66--14-1.20(8)-1.18-134--24--2.7
                            TS--150--574--218-59-11-17-133-130--93--15-1.31----1.52-183--35--6.8(2)
                            EC--145--505--182-22--5--5--89--67--84---8-1.24----1.13-110--22--2.7
                            ZW---98--349--131-13--5--8--63--65--23--12-1.29----1.26-147--15--1.2
                            
                            
                            1924
                            -----G----AB---H--D--T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA-----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--155--625--211-38-10--4-115--78--85--18-1.16(11)-1.11-126--27--2.7
                            TS--135--486--167-36--9--9--94--65--72--13-1.15-----1.24-141--21--2.3
                            EC--152--556--194-27--7--6-108--86--89--16-1.18-----1.12-141--17--2.4(5)
                            ZW--141--566--212-41--8-14--92--97--49--18-1.31-----1.37-165--35--4.5(4)
                            
                            
                            1925
                            -----G----AB---H--D--T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--121--415--157-31-12-12--97-102--65--12-1.29(4)-1.43-171--25--3.5(5)
                            TS--117--429--167-35--5-12--79--87--70--12-1.29----1.36-166--25--4.3(1)
                            EC--118--425--147-26--3--3--80--80--87---8-1.18----1.07-136--11--1.1
                            ZW--150--616--221-42-14-14-125-103--45--22-1.21----1.27-143--27--2.5
                            
                            
                            1926
                            -----G----AB---H--D---T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA-----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC---79--233---79-18--5---4--48--62--26---2-1.20(11)-1.25-137--10--0.7
                            TS--150--539--164-52--8---7--96--86--94--15-1.04-----1.14-127--29--2.4
                            EC--106--375--129-32--4---1--66--62--62---8-1.20-----1.15-137---1 -0.1
                            ZW--111--411--119-31--2---5--68--35--21--14-1.01-----1.03--99--10 -0.8
                            
                            
                            1927
                            -----G----AB---H--D---T--HR--R--RBI--BB--SO--RBA----RSA--OPS+-WS--TPR
                            TC--134--490--175-32--7---5-104--93--67--12-1.25(5)-1.14-131--22--1.6
                            TS--141--523--171-43--6---2--71--73--55---8-1.11----1.08-119--21--0.4
                            EC---95--226---76-12--1---1--55--15--56---9-1.12----0.97-140--00 -0.1
                            ZW---88--247---80-12--1---1--34--38--18---5-1.08----0.93--95---7 -0.7
                            So, let's summarize:
                            Hitting: Cobb, by a statistically significant lead.
                            Running: Cobb, was the greatest ever.
                            Defense/Positional Adjustment: Wagner, by a very wide margin.
                            Longevity: Cobb
                            Awards: Cobb. Buries Honus
                            League Quality: Cobb, by a slight margin
                            Pitching toughness: Cobb, by a large margin
                            Psychological Effect on Opponents: Cobb
                            Harmonizing effect on team: Wagner
                            Peers Opinions: Cobb buries Wagner
                            Inspiration of team mates: Cobb, by a slight margin
                            Ballpark disadvantage: Wagner by a wide margin

                            When matched against Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner has barely a leg to stand on. While Chris enjoys abusing league strength issues to promote his favorites, he's lost it here, in favor of Ty. All he's left with is positional adjustments, and that will never cover the overwhelming leads that Ty built up in hitting/running against a tougher league, and tougher pitching.
                            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-29-2005, 11:33 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Now you guys have done it...you've ticked off Bill.

                              We're gonna be arguing Cobb/Wagner for about twenty years now. LOL

                              For what it's worth, the complete PCA analysis.

                              Batting First.

                              Ty Cobb:
                              Code:
                              Age	Yr	BaO	OWC	OWY
                              18	1905	118	0.56	2.31
                              19	1906	259	3.56	6.68
                              20	1907	405	11.46	13.75
                              21	1908	407	9.25	11.05
                              22	1909	381	11.50	14.67
                              23	1910	328	14.50	21.48
                              24	1911	354	17.98	24.68
                              25	1912	335	16.11	23.37
                              26	1913	272	10.26	18.33
                              27	1914	241	7.19	14.50
                              28	1915	402	15.10	18.26
                              29	1916	379	10.64	13.64
                              30	1917	379	15.55	19.94
                              31	1918	269	8.13	14.69
                              32	1919	315	9.25	14.27
                              33	1920	302	6.86	11.04
                              34	1921	340	12.21	17.45
                              35	1922	355	11.50	15.74
                              36	1923	399	6.93	8.44
                              37	1924	443	8.02	8.80
                              38	1925	272	10.83	19.35
                              39	1926	171	3.26	9.27
                              40	1927	343	7.12	10.09
                              41	1928	249	2.85	5.56
                              Bill is correct...Cobb aged VERY well...that decline phase is surprisingly smooth and lacking in what you could consider poor performance. This will help him in the final analysis...believe you me.

                              Overall, Cobb posted a career total of 230.6 Offensive Wins and a scoring rate of 14.52 wins per 486 batting outs (16th of 1689 batters at all positions with at least 2000 batting outs).

                              Compare that to Wagner:
                              Code:
                              Age	Yr	BaO	OWC	OWY
                              23	1897	162	2.36	7.08
                              24	1898	422	4.23	4.87
                              25	1899	383	7.23	9.17
                              26	1900	330	12.18	17.94
                              27	1901	365	10.49	13.97
                              28	1902	366	7.79	10.34
                              29	1903	338	11.05	15.89
                              30	1904	324	13.56	20.34
                              31	1905	356	13.15	17.95
                              32	1906	347	10.34	14.48
                              33	1907	349	10.90	15.18
                              34	1908	381	13.22	16.86
                              35	1909	354	9.89	13.58
                              36	1910	398	6.86	8.38
                              37	1911	327	10.53	15.65
                              38	1912	388	10.04	12.58
                              39	1913	299	4.91	7.98
                              40	1914	424	3.97	4.55
                              41	1915	442	5.36	5.89
                              42	1916	318	2.58	3.94
                              43	1917	178	1.01	2.76
                              Wagner did NOT age well...after age 38...he kinda went splat. It's not too bad a tail...but it will drag him down a smidge. It adds up to 171.65 offensive wins and a career 11.5 W/486 Outs (44th all time).

                              Now to the defense.

                              Ty Cobb:
                              Code:
                              Age	Yr	PRG	ADWC	ADWY
                              18	1905	38	0.76	3.24
                              19	1906	105	2.35	3.63
                              20	1907	150	4.50	4.86
                              21	1908	154	0.94	0.99
                              22	1909	158	2.20	2.26
                              23	1910	154	2.70	2.84
                              24	1911	145	2.95	3.30
                              25	1912	142	0.43	0.49
                              26	1913	117	0.97	1.34
                              27	1914	98	0.29	0.48
                              28	1915	153	2.56	2.71
                              29	1916	152	2.17	2.31
                              30	1917	170	3.28	3.13
                              31	1918	111	1.08	1.58
                              32	1919	125	0.83	1.08
                              33	1920	120	0.07	0.09
                              34	1921	126	1.12	1.44
                              35	1922	142	0.97	1.11
                              36	1923	135	2.02	2.42
                              37	1924	152	2.27	2.42
                              38	1925	104	1.23	1.92
                              39	1926	46	0.25	0.88
                              40	1927	112	0.93	1.35
                              41	1928	73	1.66	3.68
                              There was a time...early in Cobb's career...when he was a talented defensive center fielder. He aged very VERY badly in the field. The result is a decent career fielding win total (38.52) but a scoring rate of 2.09 W/162 (84th of 106 qualifying CFers)...he should have moved to right field about 6 years before he did...the minute he did...his scoring improved. (1923)

                              Honus Wagner
                              Code:
                              Age	Yr	PRG	ADWC	ADWY
                              23	1897	61	0.90	2.39
                              24	1898	143	2.67	3.02
                              25	1899	138	3.42	4.01
                              26	1900	125	2.48	3.21
                              27	1901	144	3.39	3.81
                              28	1902	147	3.71	4.09
                              29	1903	135	2.88	3.46
                              30	1904	133	1.71	2.08
                              31	1905	149	4.40	4.78
                              32	1906	138	4.76	5.59
                              33	1907	143	2.81	3.18
                              34	1908	151	4.54	4.87
                              35	1909	135	5.37	6.44
                              36	1910	150	3.49	3.77
                              37	1911	135	2.06	2.47
                              38	1912	145	4.22	4.71
                              39	1913	108	1.59	2.39
                              40	1914	152	3.57	3.80
                              41	1915	147	4.25	4.68
                              42	1916	113	1.83	2.62
                              43	1917	62	0.36	0.94
                              Wagner remained a good solid defensive SS and eventually 2Bman throughout his career until he was 42...although it can be argued he was somewhat of a late bloomer. For his career, he amassed a healthy 64.41 defensive wins...and a career scoring rate of 3.79 W/162 Games...20th among 105 qualifying SSs.

                              In total...

                              Wagner scored 244.50 Wins in his career. Prorated to a standard career length...tha's 202.32 wins. He came up with 39.39 peak wins...for a career index of 243.10 (fully 6 wins better than Arky Vaughan(the 2nd best SS).

                              Cobb scored 277.24 Wins, which when prorated to a standard career length yield 215.53 Wins. He managed 37.71 peak wins and therefore a career index of 265.24.

                              Cobb buries Wagner by about 22 indexed wins...a convincing margin for me.
                              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-29-2005, 11:30 PM.

                              Comment


                              • I don't know what more there is to say. I've told you this a million times, Bill. I rate Wagner over Cobb primarily because I think he had a better peak (Wagner's 1908 according to Win Shares is the best single season in baseball history, Cobb doesn't have one year within 12 WS of that). Wagner also probably had more MVP type seasons. An MVP type season in the Win Shares system is defined as a year with 30+ WS. Wagner had 13 such seasons, Cobb had 12.

                                Wagner dominated his league a bit more than Cobb as well (though Wagner's league was slightly weaker). Wagner had 421 WS in the 1900s, which beats the next highest position player (Nap Lajoie) by a staggering 125 points, and beats the next best NL player (Fred Clarke) by 174.

                                Cobb still was the best player of the 1910s, but it is far less clear. He had rivals in Speaker and Collins, and only beat Spoke by 25.

                                By my analysis, Wagner was probably the best player in the league 7 times, Cobb 5 times.

                                But, my #1 reason for Wagner over Cobb has to do with the sim league argument. Wagner is the #1 SS for everyone, no question, no one even approaches him. Some have Cobb as their #1 CF, I have him #4. That's lower than most, but #3 isn't so out there, many have him there.

                                Does dominating one's position count? Yes, I think it does. The fact is, Wagner was the best ever at his position, and no one is even close, while Cobb has many rivals who are at or near his level at his respective position.

                                If I was in a sim league and making up my draft board, Wagner would probably be #1, almost certainly. Cobb may not quite make the top 10, just because there are so many other elite players at his position.

                                That "I have Wagner #1 at SS and Cobb #4 at CF, so Wagner has to be better." argument is valid, but only when the two players in question are very close in value, which Wagner and Cobb unquestionably are. I rate Cobb over Joe Morgan, even though Joe is my #1 2B, I rate Cobb over Josh Gibson, even though Gibson is my #1 catcher. That's because Cobb just kills those two by any reasonable analysis. But, in a case where they are close (Wagner/Cobb), the sim league argument becomes completely valid and is enough to push Wagner ahead, IMO.

                                Comment

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