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Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
Cobb's BA in the liveball era was slightly over .357
find me a list of players who had a higher BA during that span (1920 to 1928)
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Cobb's BA in the liveball era was slightly over .357
find me a list of players who had a higher BA during that span (1920 to 1928) -
Adam,
While Ty did much better before 1920, he did hit quite well in the 1920's. He did hit .357 for the decade, which is only exceeded by Hornsby, and probably Heilmann, I believe. Look at his Relative BA for him below. Just because he fell off from his career peak, few if any could keep up with him, in BA.
1906 - 126%
1907 - 141%
1908 - 135%
1909 - 154%
1910 - 158%
1911 - 153% of league BA.
1912 - 154%
1913 - 151%
1914 - 148%
1915 - 148%
1916 - 155%
1917 - 154%
1918 - 150%
1919 - 143%
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1920 - 117%
1921 - 133%
1922 - 140%
1923 - 120%
1924 - 116%
1925 - 129%
1926 - 120%
1927 - 125%
1928 - 114%
Yes, Mr. Cobb has some chinks in his armor, but so do all the other candidates for "Greatest Ever" honors. I'll bet I could finds chinks in other's armor. I think we need to look over one's records in total.
When you look Mr. Cobb's record, it just is better than that of any other. His only serious rival, Mr. Ruth has so many advantages, making the playing field uneven, that these things must be taken into consideration. Just because Mr. Cobb case vs. Mr. Ruth is hypothetical (circumstantial) does not render it non-existent. Simply deeper to discern. Requires a connoisseur of fine, vintage baseball, not a generic dabbler into superficial unprocessed stats.
Mr. Cobb led his league more times in traditional stats then any other player, set more records, had his records last just as long or longer than anybody else, won more polls/surveys, was said by vastly more BB authorities to be the best, was voted first into the Hall of Fame, had vastly more playing skills than anybody else.
Against this most impressive showcase of BB attainments, Mr. Ruth had one supreme gift. And this gift allowed him to dominate his sport, but only after the rules had been changed to specifically showcase his supreme skill. The world is insane. But then what's new?
Bill BurgessLast edited by Bill Burgess; 11-14-2006, 09:10 AM.Comment
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keep in mind babe ruth holds the record for most home runs in a season in the deadball era too, despite missing many gamesOriginally posted by [email protected]
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Hey Bill...you list in the Ty Cobb General thread your slate of candidates for best pitching season ever...I don't see Pedro Martinez' 2000, Greg Maddux' 1995, Randy Johnson's 2004...Steve Carlton's 1972........
A lot of potential candidates I think you're overlooking. PCA seems to think Bob Gibson's 1968 was the greatest pitching season all time, but just barely over Greg Maddux in '95.Comment
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Matt,
Yes, you are correct. In my post on the Top 10 pitching seasons, I was imposing some criteria. I was looking for seasons with at least 250 innings.
But that was for Top 10 ever. In the post right after that, I did include those other seasons. When we are speaking of the best ever, I don't see how you can avoid Walter Johnson's 1913 masterpiece. Don't you try to balance all the different factors? Johnson won the MVP when it was against all other players, not just pitchers.
Just as icing, he also hit .261 BA, .293 onbase, .433 SLG. for 134 AB.
3 good winning streaks in the same season. 56 consecutive scoreless innings.
Just can't see Bob Gibson can make up all that ground. I'd bet that Johnson also smokes Bob in % of his leagues ERA and opponent's onbase %.
Bill BurgessComment
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Walter Johnson's 1913 was impressive indeed...it's currently third on the list, but I am going to be changing the way I use linear weights...right now I'm using one set of linear weights that doesn't change...that's probably not terrribly accurate the further away from the 1980s you get since linear weights were based on data from 1984-1992.
That means the importance of the longball and the walk might change and alter how pitchers are rated...we'll see.
As you know...my research never stops.Comment
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By the way Bill...you want to talk about smoking someone in league %ERA and %Opp Avg, and Opp OBP...Greg Maddux beat Walter Johnson in terms of RAW statistics in many categories in 1995...and pitched in the homer happy mid 90s.
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Bill,Originally posted by [email protected]
The bar is not too low at 30+ HRs. Before 1920 the idea of 30+ HR seasons was probably considered absurd. Also, quite a few of the players on this list I gave had well over 30 HRs. Of the 65 30+ HRs seasons I listed, 26 of them had 35+ HR seasons. How low was the percentage of player with respect to he number of teams? Remember, until 1961 there were only 16 teams combined. Why do you conisder the percentage low? You have inspired my next project. I am going to generate a spreadsheet to compare the number of 30+, 40+, and 50+ HR seasons as a ratio to the number of teams at that time to compare the different eras.
Comparing a player's peak to others from different eras is difficult at best. I tend to believe that the game has steadily improved throughout the 20th century. Mays had to compete with Aaron, Robinson, Snider, Clemente, Ashburn, Matthews, Musial, and Banks, for batting titles, HR titles, RBI titles, etc. That's quite a talent density. Cobb didn't have quite that much "competition" in his prime, not even close. Who are the other dominant players in Cobb's prime? Speaker, Jackson, Collins were the only 1st class, no-doubts about it HoFers in the AL in Cobb's prime. A lot of Speaker's value is tied to his defense and Collins is a second baseman.Now, I must defend TC's claim to the "Greatest Ever", by posing questions to you, Adam. If TC didn't hold on as well in his decline as his rivals for the title, did they go as high as he did in their glory days? Mays sure can't claim any bragging rights, and neither can Honus. Willie's lack of league leads lets him out as a viable candidate for top honors, same as Mickey Mantle. Did you see where I compared their declines via Relative Slugging? Not as dramatic as you'd have me believe.
Before we can disuss who is the greatest ever we need to speak the same language. We need to decide on what kind of compartive system we will use to compare players. Without the being in place first we will never get anywhere...Who do you nominate for the Greatest Ever?
Bill BurgessLast edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-11-2005, 11:04 PM.Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash DavisComment
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If this is true that that is Cobb's fault. He chose not to change with the game and he got left behind. He believed that baseball should ONLY be played one way (his way, of course). I can't stand that kind of attitude. The greatness of baseball is that it can be played many different ways. No one way is superior to other ways. Cobb was simply arrogant...Originally posted by BigStellyPADRES4LIFE
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash DavisComment
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How many times do I have to respond to this?Originally posted by blackout805 I am NOT comparing Cobb to the other hitters of the 1920s. I am comparing him to other all-time greats annd how they performed after age 32. I am comparing Cobb to Mays, Aaron, Musial, Wagner, Ruth, and even Pete Rose (whold aged extremely well).
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash DavisComment
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Adam,
Mays had to compete with Aaron, Robinson, Snider, Clemente, Ashburn, Matthews, Musial, and Banks, for batting titles, HR titles, RBI titles, etc. That's quite a talent density. Cobb didn't have quite that much "competition" in his prime, not even close. Who are the other dominant players in Cobb's prime? Speaker, Jackson, Collins were the only 1st class, no-doubts about it HoFers in the AL in Cobb's prime.
(Bill - Oh yeah. You really think so? Seems you've had a brain fart here. Forgot Lajoie, Crawford, Baker, Ruth, Veach, and a gaggle of other tough hitters to fight with to get your league leads.
So the issue of league strength, while valid, does not seem out of proportion. Cobb is expected to crush those bums, and does so admirably. His quest for league leads was not conducted against the masses, but the elite top end.
Ty's rivals - Speaker, Jackson, Collins, Sisler, Baker, Lajoie, Crawford, Ruth, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Bob Meusel, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker were not competitively inferior to Willie's elite top end.
And when Ty was at the end of the line, he had to contend with talents of the calibre of Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, Heinie Manush, Lew Fonseca, Joe Hauser.
And the level of pitching that Cobb had to cope with was not inferior to that which Willie had to deal with.
Ty's pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 2 seasons.
So it would appear that Ty had to face much tougher breed of pitcher than Babe or Willie. Babe didn't have the doctored balls, and had fresher balls, in their primes of course. And the level of pitching you face counts. Whoever faced more difficult pitching than Cobb?
Willie's rivals: Aaron, Clemente, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.
Willie also had to face Spahn, Robin Roberts, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Gibson, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Chris Short, Jim Bunning, Bob Friend, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Phil/Joe Niekro.)
Bill BurgessLast edited by Bill Burgess; 11-14-2006, 09:19 AM.Comment
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Originally Posted by Metal Ed
Bill, from your post it is not clear to me what Babe's relative slugging was in the 20's. You listed his yearly actual slugging %. Could you do what you did with Ty, where you listed yearly relative slugging?
Code:Ruth Year Rel Slg Rel OBA ------------------------- 1914 0.895 0.607 1915 1.741 1.145 1916 1.249 0.973 1917 1.436 1.187 1918 1.689 1.252 1919 1.826 1.376 1920 2.075 1.465 1921 1.992 1.388 1922 1.618 1.200 1923 1.889 1.498 1924 1.808 1.395 1925 1.306 1.073 1926 1.832 1.440 1927 1.906 1.366 1928 1.756 1.329 1929 1.716 1.245 1930 1.722 1.401 1931 1.764 1.443 1932 1.618 1.410 1933 1.482 1.294 1934 1.342 1.282 1935 1.102 1.097 Cobb Year Rel Slg Rel OBA ------------------------- 1905 0.923 0.931 1906 1.185 1.123 1907 1.444 1.204 1908 1.492 1.189 1909 1.580 1.349 1910 1.650 1.395 1911 1.639 1.310 1912 1.653 1.357 1913 1.548 1.398 1914 1.508 1.392 1915 1.414 1.422 1916 1.440 1.339 1917 1.726 1.362 1918 1.584 1.353 1919 1.401 1.267 1920 1.138 1.180 1921 1.423 1.244 1922 1.393 1.309 1923 1.184 1.159 1924 1.111 1.148 1925 1.430 1.272 1926 1.250 1.122 1927 1.137 1.182 1928 1.035 1.083
Dave KentComment
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Originally posted by [email protected]
First of all in Cobb's prime, the teens, Ruth was a young pitcher and a part time hitter. Crawford was elected by the Veterans Committee in 1957 (I think) and is NOT a grade-A, no-doubts-about-it HoFer, and Veach isn't even in the HoF.
So the issue of league strength, while valid, does not seem out of proportion. Cobb is expected to crush those bums, and does so admirably. His quest for league leads was not conducted against the masses, but the elite top end.
Ty's rivals - Speaker, Jackson, Collins, Sisler, Baker, Lajoie, Crawford, Ruth, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Bob Meusel, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker were not competitively inferior to Willie's elite top end.
And when Ty was at the end of the line, he had to contend with talents of the calibre of Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, Heinie Manush, Lew Fonseca, Joe Hauser.
And the level of pitching that Cobb had to cope with was not inferior to that which Willie had to deal with.
Ty's pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 2 seasons.
So it would appear that Ty had to face much tougher breed of pitcher than Babe or Willie. Babe didn't have the doctored balls, and had fresher balls, in their primes of course. And the level of pitching you face counts. Whoever faced more difficult pitching than Cobb?
Willie's rivals: Aaron, Clemente, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.
Willie also had to face Spahn, Robin Roberts, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Gibson, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Chris Short, Jim Bunning, Bob Friend, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Phil/Joe Niekro.)I'll have to address the rest of your post tomorrow...
Bill Burgess
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash DavisComment
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Well, it took a while, but I think I've salvaged the Ty Cobb General Thread.
The new one is NOT a posting thread. I've sucessfully shrunk it from 36 pages to 7 pages! That's what I was hoping to do. But please do not post on it, or it will soon be 36 pages again.
Anything on it is fair game, but respond to it on the TC Discussion thread, the one we're on now. Thanks guys.
BillComment
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Adam,
I have posted a lot of stuff on Ty's fights. No hiding the bad stuff here. On the first page of the Ty Cobb Thread, I showed a lot of his fights in the following 3 posts. He was suspended in 1912 for going into the grandstand to beat up an abusive heckler. The heckler had a foghorn voice and was yelling personal stuff about Ty's racial ancestral lineage, in a derogatory way. The type of stuff that 24 yr. old Southern men in 1912 were known to consider "fighting words". In public. The South in those days had an honor code very similiar to Japan. Almost everything was taken as an affront or insult to one's family.
3. How Racist Was Ty?
4. Did Cobb's Team Mates Hate Him?
5. Did Leo Durocher Once Give Ty Cobb the Hip?
Bill BurgessComment
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