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  • #76
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
    I've addressed this before in previous posts. Though, his BAs look superfically impressive, if you take into account the offensive era of the 1920s they BA are not that impressive. His .401 BA in 1922 is not even remotely comparible to Cobb's other two .400 seasons in the dead ball era.

    Also, I DiDN"T say Cobb wasn't good in the 1920s. I actaully said that Cobb wasn't dominant in the 1920s. His performace after age 32 when compared to other alltime greats is poor.

    Cobb's BA in the liveball era was slightly over .357

    find me a list of players who had a higher BA during that span (1920 to 1928)

    Comment


    • #77
      Adam,

      While Ty did much better before 1920, he did hit quite well in the 1920's. He did hit .357 for the decade, which is only exceeded by Hornsby, and probably Heilmann, I believe. Look at his Relative BA for him below. Just because he fell off from his career peak, few if any could keep up with him, in BA.

      1906 - 126%
      1907 - 141%
      1908 - 135%
      1909 - 154%
      1910 - 158%
      1911 - 153% of league BA.
      1912 - 154%
      1913 - 151%
      1914 - 148%
      1915 - 148%
      1916 - 155%
      1917 - 154%
      1918 - 150%
      1919 - 143%
      ------------
      1920 - 117%
      1921 - 133%
      1922 - 140%
      1923 - 120%
      1924 - 116%
      1925 - 129%
      1926 - 120%
      1927 - 125%
      1928 - 114%

      Yes, Mr. Cobb has some chinks in his armor, but so do all the other candidates for "Greatest Ever" honors. I'll bet I could finds chinks in other's armor. I think we need to look over one's records in total.

      When you look Mr. Cobb's record, it just is better than that of any other. His only serious rival, Mr. Ruth has so many advantages, making the playing field uneven, that these things must be taken into consideration. Just because Mr. Cobb case vs. Mr. Ruth is hypothetical (circumstantial) does not render it non-existent. Simply deeper to discern. Requires a connoisseur of fine, vintage baseball, not a generic dabbler into superficial unprocessed stats.

      Mr. Cobb led his league more times in traditional stats then any other player, set more records, had his records last just as long or longer than anybody else, won more polls/surveys, was said by vastly more BB authorities to be the best, was voted first into the Hall of Fame, had vastly more playing skills than anybody else.

      Against this most impressive showcase of BB attainments, Mr. Ruth had one supreme gift. And this gift allowed him to dominate his sport, but only after the rules had been changed to specifically showcase his supreme skill. The world is insane. But then what's new?

      Bill Burgess
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 11-14-2006, 09:10 AM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by [email protected]
        Against this most impressive showcase of BB attainments, Mr. Ruth had one supreme gift. And this gift allowed him to dominate his sport, but only after the rules had been changed to specificly showcase his supreme skill.
        keep in mind babe ruth holds the record for most home runs in a season in the deadball era too, despite missing many games

        Comment


        • #79
          Hey Bill...you list in the Ty Cobb General thread your slate of candidates for best pitching season ever...I don't see Pedro Martinez' 2000, Greg Maddux' 1995, Randy Johnson's 2004...Steve Carlton's 1972........

          A lot of potential candidates I think you're overlooking. PCA seems to think Bob Gibson's 1968 was the greatest pitching season all time, but just barely over Greg Maddux in '95.

          Comment


          • #80
            Matt,

            Yes, you are correct. In my post on the Top 10 pitching seasons, I was imposing some criteria. I was looking for seasons with at least 250 innings.

            But that was for Top 10 ever. In the post right after that, I did include those other seasons. When we are speaking of the best ever, I don't see how you can avoid Walter Johnson's 1913 masterpiece. Don't you try to balance all the different factors? Johnson won the MVP when it was against all other players, not just pitchers.

            Just as icing, he also hit .261 BA, .293 onbase, .433 SLG. for 134 AB.
            3 good winning streaks in the same season. 56 consecutive scoreless innings.

            Just can't see Bob Gibson can make up all that ground. I'd bet that Johnson also smokes Bob in % of his leagues ERA and opponent's onbase %.

            Bill Burgess

            Comment


            • #81
              Walter Johnson's 1913 was impressive indeed...it's currently third on the list, but I am going to be changing the way I use linear weights...right now I'm using one set of linear weights that doesn't change...that's probably not terrribly accurate the further away from the 1980s you get since linear weights were based on data from 1984-1992.

              That means the importance of the longball and the walk might change and alter how pitchers are rated...we'll see.

              As you know...my research never stops.

              Comment


              • #82
                By the way Bill...you want to talk about smoking someone in league %ERA and %Opp Avg, and Opp OBP...Greg Maddux beat Walter Johnson in terms of RAW statistics in many categories in 1995...and pitched in the homer happy mid 90s.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by [email protected]
                  Adam,


                  So far, I feel as if I'm winning. You said that lots of guys were goin' with Babe's new style, but I can't see where you proved your case. You showed me 16 guys in the NL, and 17 in the AL. But . . . the bar was low at 30 HRs/season, and how many hitters are 33 total hitters out of how many? I contend that that is a VERY low percent of the hitters.
                  Bill,

                  The bar is not too low at 30+ HRs. Before 1920 the idea of 30+ HR seasons was probably considered absurd. Also, quite a few of the players on this list I gave had well over 30 HRs. Of the 65 30+ HRs seasons I listed, 26 of them had 35+ HR seasons. How low was the percentage of player with respect to he number of teams? Remember, until 1961 there were only 16 teams combined. Why do you conisder the percentage low? You have inspired my next project. I am going to generate a spreadsheet to compare the number of 30+, 40+, and 50+ HR seasons as a ratio to the number of teams at that time to compare the different eras.

                  Now, I must defend TC's claim to the "Greatest Ever", by posing questions to you, Adam. If TC didn't hold on as well in his decline as his rivals for the title, did they go as high as he did in their glory days? Mays sure can't claim any bragging rights, and neither can Honus. Willie's lack of league leads lets him out as a viable candidate for top honors, same as Mickey Mantle. Did you see where I compared their declines via Relative Slugging? Not as dramatic as you'd have me believe.
                  Comparing a player's peak to others from different eras is difficult at best. I tend to believe that the game has steadily improved throughout the 20th century. Mays had to compete with Aaron, Robinson, Snider, Clemente, Ashburn, Matthews, Musial, and Banks, for batting titles, HR titles, RBI titles, etc. That's quite a talent density. Cobb didn't have quite that much "competition" in his prime, not even close. Who are the other dominant players in Cobb's prime? Speaker, Jackson, Collins were the only 1st class, no-doubts about it HoFers in the AL in Cobb's prime. A lot of Speaker's value is tied to his defense and Collins is a second baseman.
                  Who do you nominate for the Greatest Ever?

                  Bill Burgess
                  Before we can disuss who is the greatest ever we need to speak the same language. We need to decide on what kind of compartive system we will use to compare players. Without the being in place first we will never get anywhere...
                  Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-11-2005, 11:04 PM.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by BigStellyPADRES4LIFE
                    Cobb in the 1920s didnt hit for power because he didnt believe thats how the game was supposed to be played(his bigotry spread into his style of play...) Late in the 1920s in the very end of his career he announced for a week or something like that(forgive me i dont have the data with me but its on the 9 innings of baseball a TV series done in the early 90s) he would be hitting only for power... the result something like 6 HR in 5 games and Ruthian like slugging numbers. Part of the reason he didnt chage was not because he wasnt good enough to but because he didnt want to.
                    If this is true that that is Cobb's fault. He chose not to change with the game and he got left behind. He believed that baseball should ONLY be played one way (his way, of course). I can't stand that kind of attitude. The greatness of baseball is that it can be played many different ways. No one way is superior to other ways. Cobb was simply arrogant...
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by blackout805
                      Cobb's BA in the liveball era was slightly over .357

                      find me a list of players who had a higher BA during that span (1920 to 1928)
                      How many times do I have to respond to this? I am NOT comparing Cobb to the other hitters of the 1920s. I am comparing him to other all-time greats annd how they performed after age 32. I am comparing Cobb to Mays, Aaron, Musial, Wagner, Ruth, and even Pete Rose (whold aged extremely well).
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Adam,

                        Mays had to compete with Aaron, Robinson, Snider, Clemente, Ashburn, Matthews, Musial, and Banks, for batting titles, HR titles, RBI titles, etc. That's quite a talent density. Cobb didn't have quite that much "competition" in his prime, not even close. Who are the other dominant players in Cobb's prime? Speaker, Jackson, Collins were the only 1st class, no-doubts about it HoFers in the AL in Cobb's prime.

                        (Bill - Oh yeah. You really think so? Seems you've had a brain fart here. Forgot Lajoie, Crawford, Baker, Ruth, Veach, and a gaggle of other tough hitters to fight with to get your league leads.

                        So the issue of league strength, while valid, does not seem out of proportion. Cobb is expected to crush those bums, and does so admirably. His quest for league leads was not conducted against the masses, but the elite top end.

                        Ty's rivals - Speaker, Jackson, Collins, Sisler, Baker, Lajoie, Crawford, Ruth, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Bob Meusel, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker were not competitively inferior to Willie's elite top end.

                        And when Ty was at the end of the line, he had to contend with talents of the calibre of Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, Heinie Manush, Lew Fonseca, Joe Hauser.

                        And the level of pitching that Cobb had to cope with was not inferior to that which Willie had to deal with.

                        Ty's pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 2 seasons.

                        So it would appear that Ty had to face much tougher breed of pitcher than Babe or Willie. Babe didn't have the doctored balls, and had fresher balls, in their primes of course. And the level of pitching you face counts. Whoever faced more difficult pitching than Cobb?

                        Willie's rivals: Aaron, Clemente, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.

                        Willie also had to face Spahn, Robin Roberts, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Gibson, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Chris Short, Jim Bunning, Bob Friend, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Phil/Joe Niekro.)


                        Bill Burgess
                        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 11-14-2006, 09:19 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally Posted by Metal Ed
                          Bill, from your post it is not clear to me what Babe's relative slugging was in the 20's. You listed his yearly actual slugging %. Could you do what you did with Ty, where you listed yearly relative slugging?

                          Code:
                          Ruth
                          
                          Year    Rel Slg   Rel OBA
                          -------------------------
                          1914     0.895     0.607
                          1915     1.741     1.145
                          1916     1.249     0.973
                          1917     1.436     1.187
                          1918     1.689     1.252
                          1919     1.826     1.376
                          1920     2.075     1.465
                          1921     1.992     1.388
                          1922     1.618     1.200
                          1923     1.889     1.498
                          1924     1.808     1.395
                          1925     1.306     1.073
                          1926     1.832     1.440
                          1927     1.906     1.366
                          1928     1.756     1.329
                          1929     1.716     1.245
                          1930     1.722     1.401
                          1931     1.764     1.443
                          1932     1.618     1.410
                          1933     1.482     1.294
                          1934     1.342     1.282
                          1935     1.102     1.097
                          
                          Cobb
                          
                          Year    Rel Slg   Rel OBA
                          -------------------------
                          1905     0.923     0.931
                          1906     1.185     1.123
                          1907     1.444     1.204
                          1908     1.492     1.189
                          1909     1.580     1.349
                          1910     1.650     1.395
                          1911     1.639     1.310
                          1912     1.653     1.357
                          1913     1.548     1.398
                          1914     1.508     1.392
                          1915     1.414     1.422
                          1916     1.440     1.339
                          1917     1.726     1.362
                          1918     1.584     1.353
                          1919     1.401     1.267
                          1920     1.138     1.180
                          1921     1.423     1.244
                          1922     1.393     1.309
                          1923     1.184     1.159
                          1924     1.111     1.148
                          1925     1.430     1.272
                          1926     1.250     1.122
                          1927     1.137     1.182
                          1928     1.035     1.083
                          Dave Kent

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by [email protected]
                            Adam,

                            Mays had to compete with Aaron, Robinson, Snider, Clemente, Ashburn, Matthews, Musial, and Banks, for batting titles, HR titles, RBI titles, etc. That's quite a talent density. Cobb didn't have quite that much "competition" in his prime, not even close. Who are the other dominant players in Cobb's prime? Speaker, Jackson, Collins were the only 1st class, no-doubts about it HoFers in the AL in Cobb's prime.

                            (Bill - Oh yeah. You really think so? Seems you've had a brain fart here. Forgot Lajoie, Crawford, Ruth, Veach, and a gaggle of other tough hitters to fight with to get your league leads.

                            First of all in Cobb's prime, the teens, Ruth was a young pitcher and a part time hitter. Crawford was elected by the Veterans Committee in 1957 (I think) and is NOT a grade-A, no-doubts-about-it HoFer, and Veach isn't even in the HoF.
                            So the issue of league strength, while valid, does not seem out of proportion. Cobb is expected to crush those bums, and does so admirably. His quest for league leads was not conducted against the masses, but the elite top end.

                            Ty's rivals - Speaker, Jackson, Collins, Sisler, Baker, Lajoie, Crawford, Ruth, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Bob Meusel, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker were not competitively inferior to Willie's elite top end.

                            And when Ty was at the end of the line, he had to contend with talents of the calibre of Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Jimmie Foxx, Al Simmons, Heinie Manush, Lew Fonseca, Joe Hauser.

                            And the level of pitching that Cobb had to cope with was not inferior to that which Willie had to deal with.

                            Ty's pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 2 seasons.

                            So it would appear that Ty had to face much tougher breed of pitcher than Babe or Willie. Babe didn't have the doctored balls, and had fresher balls, in their primes of course. And the level of pitching you face counts. Whoever faced more difficult pitching than Cobb?

                            Willie's rivals: Aaron, Clemente, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.

                            Willie also had to face Spahn, Robin Roberts, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Gibson, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Chris Short, Jim Bunning, Bob Friend, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Phil/Joe Niekro.)

                            Bill Burgess
                            I'll have to address the rest of your post tomorrow...
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Well, it took a while, but I think I've salvaged the Ty Cobb General Thread.

                              The new one is NOT a posting thread. I've sucessfully shrunk it from 36 pages to 7 pages! That's what I was hoping to do. But please do not post on it, or it will soon be 36 pages again.

                              Anything on it is fair game, but respond to it on the TC Discussion thread, the one we're on now. Thanks guys.

                              Bill

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Adam,

                                I have posted a lot of stuff on Ty's fights. No hiding the bad stuff here. On the first page of the Ty Cobb Thread, I showed a lot of his fights in the following 3 posts. He was suspended in 1912 for going into the grandstand to beat up an abusive heckler. The heckler had a foghorn voice and was yelling personal stuff about Ty's racial ancestral lineage, in a derogatory way. The type of stuff that 24 yr. old Southern men in 1912 were known to consider "fighting words". In public. The South in those days had an honor code very similiar to Japan. Almost everything was taken as an affront or insult to one's family.

                                3. How Racist Was Ty?
                                4. Did Cobb's Team Mates Hate Him?
                                5. Did Leo Durocher Once Give Ty Cobb the Hip?

                                Bill Burgess

                                Comment

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