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What is most impressive about Greg Maddux's career?

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  • #31
    The fact that he didnt blow you away with his fastball...he had pinpoint control

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    • #32
      From the BBRef Box Score, Braves at Cubs, July 22, 1997.

      Capture.PNG

      I've seen an article that talks about this game and quotes a total of 76 pitches. 76 or 77, still ridiculous!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by brett View Post
        Maybe I will think of something else, but for 4 straight years he led the league in IP AND ERA+

        edit: I can't find anyone else who lead the league in IP and ERA+ in the same season more than twice in their whole careers.

        edit: Pete Alexander did it 3 times, with 2 consecutive.
        Justin Verlander narrowly missed doing it for a third time in 2019 - he led in IP but his teammate Cole edged him in ERA+.

        As far as I can tell, in the entire history of MLB only four pitchers have led their league in both IP and ERA+ in consecutive seasons:

        Maddux (1992-95)
        Pete Alexander (1915-16)
        Bucky Walters (1939-40)
        Justin Verlander (2011-12)
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

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        • #34
          I found something that may also be a unique accomplishment that is insane from a sabermetric perspective

          In 1995 Maddux lead the league in relative FIP AND in relative BABIP, meaning he was both the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did not result on a ball in play (BB, K, HR) and also the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did result in a ball in play. He actually finished first in relative FIP and second in relative BABIP in 1994 as well.

          For those two years his relative FIP was 53 and his relative BABIP was 85.

          Any system that rates him on FIP alone does a huge injustice. In '94 and '95 he had a combined .248 BABIP allowed while the rest of his team was .291, so his BABIP allowed was only 85% of the rest of his own team, meaning that he was probably responsible for the low BABIP.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by brett View Post
            I found something that may also be a unique accomplishment that is insane from a sabermetric perspective

            In 1995 Maddux lead the league in relative FIP AND in relative BABIP, meaning he was both the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did not result on a ball in play (BB, K, HR) and also the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did result in a ball in play. He actually finished first in relative FIP and second in relative BABIP in 1994 as well.

            For those two years his relative FIP was 53 and his relative BABIP was 85.

            Any system that rates him on FIP alone does a huge injustice. In '94 and '95 he had a combined .248 BABIP allowed while the rest of his team was .291, so his BABIP allowed was only 85% of the rest of his own team, meaning that he was probably responsible for the low BABIP.
            Greg Maddux was a really good pitcher IMHO.
            My top 10 players:

            1. Babe Ruth
            2. Barry Bonds
            3. Ty Cobb
            4. Ted Williams
            5. Willie Mays
            6. Alex Rodriguez
            7. Hank Aaron
            8. Honus Wagner
            9. Lou Gehrig
            10. Mickey Mantle

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post

              Greg Maddux was a really good pitcher IMHO.
              I dunno. That's kind of a bit controversial for you to say that, no?
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • #37
                Originally posted by brett View Post
                I found something that may also be a unique accomplishment that is insane from a sabermetric perspective

                In 1995 Maddux lead the league in relative FIP AND in relative BABIP, meaning he was both the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did not result on a ball in play (BB, K, HR) and also the best pitcher in the league in plate appearances that did result in a ball in play. He actually finished first in relative FIP and second in relative BABIP in 1994 as well.

                For those two years his relative FIP was 53 and his relative BABIP was 85.

                Any system that rates him on FIP alone does a huge injustice. In '94 and '95 he had a combined .248 BABIP allowed while the rest of his team was .291, so his BABIP allowed was only 85% of the rest of his own team, meaning that he was probably responsible for the low BABIP.
                Based on his batted-ball profile - a large chunk of his remaining post-defense BABIP reduction was probably his own defense. Nothing in his batted-ball data (location, velocity, trajectory, etc.) suggests he should have suppressed ball in play to nearly the degree he did.

                Since we are on the topic, Maddux had a career BABIP of about .280 compared to a team around .290 compared to a league around .300. Maddux probably only save around 80 or so runs in his career due to BABIP suppression outside of the defenses behind him.

                For all of the talk about the BABIP (which he is actually not historically dominating), Maddux's real component strengths were his walk preventing and homerun prevention. Those two were definitely historically great. it shocks a lot of people to see that he was no a major career peripheral beater. Most of what he gained preventing hits on balls-in-play/his defense was given back to to pitching much worse (relatively) with men on base and not holding runners well.

                In the end, Maddux showed how great you can be if you never walk anyone and never give-up dingers.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                  Based on his batted-ball profile - a large chunk of his remaining post-defense BABIP reduction was probably his own defense. Nothing in his batted-ball data (location, velocity, trajectory, etc.) suggests he should have suppressed ball in play to nearly the degree he did.
                  Is that true in '94 and '95 as well? His BABIP+ in those years was 85 which is very, very good, and his team was 100 which would mean that he was about 15-18 runs saved in each of those two years versus the rest of the pitchers on his team due to lower BABIP. Another thing, many good pitchers with low FIP have higher than average BABIP. I posed a question to a friend recently as to whether high K pitchers with a given FIP tended to yield higher BABIP and error rates behind them. It looks like it may be the case. In fact, even a when looking at a single pitcher over the course of his career, we often see an inverse relationship between FIP and BABIP, with many pitchers improving in BABIP in seasons in which they fall in BABIP. I would have to look deeper into the data but I suspect that there is actually a negative correlation between FIP and BABIP for pitching seasons over history. Perhaps this is due primarily to the K portion of FIP.
                  Last edited by brett; 04-08-2021, 07:23 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by brett View Post

                    Is that true in '94 and '95 as well? His BABIP+ in those years was 85 which is very, very good, and his team was 100 which would mean that he was about 15-18 runs saved in each of those two years versus the rest of the pitchers on his team due to lower BABIP. Another thing, many good pitchers with low FIP have higher than average BABIP. I posed a question to a friend recently as to whether high K pitchers with a given FIP tended to yield higher BABIP and error rates behind them. It looks like it may be the case. In fact, even a when looking at a single pitcher over the course of his career, we often see an inverse relationship between FIP and BABIP, with many pitchers improving in BABIP in seasons in which they fall in BABIP. I would have to look deeper into the data but I suspect that there is actually a negative correlation between FIP and BABIP for pitching seasons over history. Perhaps this is due primarily to the K portion of FIP.
                    94 and 95 were likely a combination of good personal defense in his athletic peak, his best BABIP prevention in his pitching peak, and more than typical batted ball "luck."
                    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      His quip that "chicks dig the long ball."
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                      • #41
                        https://youtu.be/axkik-8oFTs

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                        • #42
                          In Greg's prime years he wasn't giving up a lot of flyballs and line drives. That isn't because of the defense. That's because of his pitching.

                          ​​​​​Maddux wasn't just not giving up walks and homers. He wasn't giving up hits. HR are stand ins for hard hit balls and he wasn't giving those up.

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