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  • #31
    Originally posted by BoSox Rule
    If Joe Morgan never went near a microphone again...

    That would be awesome.
    AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Second that for a contemporary and his drivel, as well (Tim McCarver).

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by blackout805
      Joe Morgans career BA was .271

      Hornsby's was .359


      There is no way ANY large gap between the quality of their defense could overcome 88 points on a batting average
      That's raw batting average- adjust if for their relative eras.

      Consider parity of the league and overall competitive balance.

      Also, it isn't just average- also baserunning, fielding, stealing, team leadership/intangibles (yes, BoSox, they certainly DO play a factor in player greatness. You should ask your forefathers about someone like Carl Yazstremski as a baseball player, in comparison to his statistics alone).

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by julusnc
        I actually saw Joe Morgan play much of his Red's career in person during summers in Ohio between 1975 - 1979 and later with the San Fran Giants.......I have meet Joe Morgan on at least 4 ocassions and he is not a very nice guy.
        I saw him play as a minor leaguer in San Antonio and when he broke in with Houston. I followed him as intently as I could when he went to Cincy, but naturally couldn't see him as often as an everyday Reds fan.

        I once met a provencial governor in Thailand who was as charming a man as you'd hope to share a meal with. What a nice guy, I thought. Later I found out he was responsible for a lot of death and other nasty stuff. Based on one afternoon near Sonkhla I would've probably rated him one of the best governors in the world, and I would've been terribly wrong.
        Never confuse character with geography --- Red Smith
        Astros Daily

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules
          So far the Morganite clan consists of:

          1. Honus wagner Rules
          2. 538280
          put me down as a card-carrying member of the morganite clan.
          "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by blackout805
            Joe Morgans career BA was .271

            Hornsby's was .359


            There is no way ANY large gap between the quality of their defense could overcome 88 points on a batting average
            So now we are adding to Hornsby's BA?! It's a small point but Hornsby BA is .358.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • #36
              Morganite Clan

              1. Honus wagner Rules
              2. 538280
              3. west coast orange and black
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by csh19792001
                That's raw batting average- adjust if for their relative eras.

                Consider parity of the league and overall competitive balance.

                Also, it isn't just average- also baserunning, fielding, stealing, team leadership/intangibles (yes, BoSox, they certainly DO play a factor in player greatness. You should ask your forefathers about someone like Carl Yazstremski as a baseball player, in comparison to his statistics alone).

                morgan - .271 league BA - .260

                hornsby - .359 league BA - .282

                thats 11 points vs 77 points

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by csh19792001
                  (yes, BoSox, they certainly DO play a factor in player greatness. You should ask your forefathers about someone like Carl Yazstremski as a baseball player, in comparison to his statistics alone).
                  It's not a bad thing to have, but it doesn't put people over the top for me. I consider Derek Jeter a very good player, but I don't want him on my team over a superior player because of his leadership. When I'm talking about the better player, I don't consider intangibles period. They have no TANGIBLE value in the game of baseball.

                  If Barry Bonds was the best leader in baseball, that would not somehow make him a better player. Derek Jeter is a "leader" but he doesn't make him a better player than he is.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 538280
                    Bleacherbee,

                    How could you possibly say that Joe Morgan can't announce a game? He's the best ever, as an announcer and a second baseman!

                    Please, please please please tell me that you're joking. That's not even funny.
                    "From reading some of your other posts your to much of a jerk, who thinks he's funny to debate on any thread. Just wanted to let you know what i and im sure others think of your mostly stupid posts..."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bleacherbee
                      Please, please please please tell me that you're joking. That's not even funny.
                      This thread is about Joe Morgan the player not Joe Morgan the ESPN announcer.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by blackout805
                        morgan - .271 league BA - .260

                        hornsby - .359 league BA - .282

                        thats 11 points vs 77 points
                        Since I don't have the resources regarding standard deviation (SD) adjusted statistics....

                        Paging Metal Ed!!! :atthepc

                        Mark- this is your guy. Time to speak up. :o

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The war is officially on now, and I'm ready for battle.

                          ElHalo and all other Hornsbyians,

                          First off, ElHalo says that Hornsby had a much shorter career than Morgan. That is not true, Morgan's career was a little bit longer, but not that much.

                          Also, ElHalo mentioned similarity scores. Similarity scores are based entirely on hitting. It quantifies none of Morgan's heads-up play, fielding, or baserunning (it does include stolen bases, but baserunning is far more than that).

                          Next, I would like to go over the five tools of a player, seeing who holds the edge. I have added two other skills that are long overdue of being included with the other five, plate discipline and baseball intelligence.

                          Hitting for average: Hornsby. All of the evil Hornsbyians just look at Hornsby's superior batting average, .358, and just automatically say he is the best second baseman ever.

                          Hitting for power: Tie. Hornsby's home run totals are a little bit larger, but Morgan's era included far less home runs than Hornsby's. The doubles are slightly in favor of Hornsby, Morgan would be a better triples hitter if he played in Hornsby's era.

                          Running Speed: Morgan. Morgan stole far more bases, and showed his speed on the basepaths and in the field.

                          Fielding: Morgan. According to Bill James's win shares fielding analysis, Hornsby is the worst defensive second baseman ever, and Morgan is near the top.

                          Throwing Arm: Tie. Both had decent throwing arms, but neither was known for having a great arm.

                          Plate discipline: Morgan. Morgan was the most patient hitter of his era, and his OBP is 121 points higher than his batting average. Hornsby was patient, but he wasn't in Morgan's class.

                          Baseball Intelligence: Morgan. Bill James rated Morgan as having the highest "baseball IQ of any player since caught stealing was calculated. Morgan's great baseball IQ also shows in the announcing booth.

                          The score is Morgan 4, Hornsby 1, 2 ties

                          Joe Morgan, the best second baseman ever!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Way to turn from the dark side, csh19792001!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Bleacherbee,

                              I'm not joking, Joe Morgan is the best announcer ever!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                As far as player rankings go, I usually rank Hornsby as the 4th best player of all time, Lajoie 11th, Collins around 20, Gehringer around 30, and Morgan somewhere just outside the top 50.
                                "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                                Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                                Comment

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