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Mickey Mantle vs Joe DiMaggio

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    layson27
    Registered User

  • layson27
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    This is a really tough comp: DiMaggio vs. Mantle.

    1. Can someone outline for everyone DiMaggio's fielding splits and explain how he was adversely affected by patrolling YS for 13 seasons?
    His fielding splits reveal Yankee Stadium cost him both putouts and assists. A lot of them.

    2. Did Mantle suffer the same CF/home field issues/splits with fielding because of Yankee Stadium?
    No. The opposite, possibly because of the HR rate skyrocketing in the 1950's as more and more hitters tried more often to hit the ball out of the park. Mantle probably had a lot more opportunities in YS to catch flyballs than DiMaggio.


    brett
    Registered User
    brett
    layson27
    Registered User
    layson27 , how does DiMaggio fare in the most updated iteration of rrOPS+ and what would his OPS+ have been in a neutral park? How about career projections with war credit?

    Any insights the statistical/historical mavens here could provide would be hugely appreciated.
    Sabermetrically it depends on how many Rbat and Rfield/Fraa you plug into the equation. I'm not sure how many Rbat DiMaggio's rrOPS+ converts to. His true worth as a fielder is hard to quantify due to BBRef regressions and Tom Thress' much narrower defensive runs spectrum.

    Leave a comment:

  • GiambiJuice
    Registered User

  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Kind of a surprise to me, Jimmie Foxx only 18 homeruns at Yankee Stadium, 153 games, that was season back then.
    I know Yankee Stadium was tough for the long ball for RH hitters, but he is Jimmie Foxx.
    He did play at NY from1925 to 1936 when the park was deeper in CF, 490 feet.
    Surprised played only 4 games his first 3 seasons.
    Foxx is an all-time great but is nevertheless overrated in my opinion. I routinely see him ranked as one of the top 5 or 6 hitters ever - and ahead of DiMaggio - which is preposterous. Foxx was helped by his home parks and we all know how bad Yankee stadium was for RH power hitters.

    Road rates:
    Foxx .307/.405/.560
    DiMaggio .334/.406/.611

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    This is a really tough comp: DiMaggio vs. Mantle.

    1. Can someone outline for everyone DiMaggio's fielding splits and explain how he was adversely affected by patrolling YS for 13 seasons?

    2. Did Mantle suffer the same CF/home field issues/splits with fielding because of Yankee Stadium?

    brett
    Registered User
    brett
    layson27
    Registered User
    layson27 , how does DiMaggio fare in the most updated iteration of rrOPS+ and what would his OPS+ have been in a neutral park? How about career projections with war credit?

    Any insights the statistical/historical mavens here could provide would be hugely appreciated.

    Thanks, everyone!

    PS: Food for thought...

    DiMaggio in a neutral (NOT a hitters' park), with war credit, and an extra year in 1952 (note: he was held back in the PCL in 1934-1935). This is obviously with the 154 game schedule, also. If this was prorated 162 games/season, he'd likely pass Henry Aaron for the all time lead in RBI.

    (In only 17 seasons!!)

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Kind of a surprise to me, Jimmie Foxx only 18 homeruns at Yankee Stadium, 153 games, that was season back then.
    I know Yankee Stadium was tough for the long ball for RH hitters, but he is Jimmie Foxx.
    He did play at NY from1925 to 1936 when the park was deeper in CF, 490 feet.
    Surprised played only 4 games his first 3 seasons.

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Anyway, after all these years following the game, I see Joe Gordon a lot better that I thought he was.
    Good to hear!!!

    Most carer HR, All RHH, NYY Players, Old Yankee Stadium.

    Screen Shot 2020-05-11 at 5.45.18 PM.png

    Fenway, same years:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-11 at 5.48.08 PM.png

    Of the top 2 in home runs at Fenway:

    --At Yankee Stadium Bobby Doerr's career tOPS (his OPS+ compared to all other parks) was 31. .200/.272/.257 career in 135 games there.

    --Jimmie Foxx, tOPS 54. .263/.349/.441 career line there. Foxx hit only 18 home runs at Yankee Stadium in 153 games.
    Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User
    Last edited by Floyd Gondolli; 05-11-2020, 03:52 PM.

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post
    30 home runs in a season, right handed Yankees, 1923-1975:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-11 at 1.28.23 PM.png
    Getting off the theme, that Joe Gordon RH with 30 homers at Yankee Stadium caught my eye. Took a look, 15 home and 15 road, only 2 hit to RF at home.
    Had no idea 253 career home runs, two years in the service age 29 and 30. Very possible with those two years in the service, could have been a career 300 home run hitter, prior to 1950.
    Add to that a middle infielder, bigger than I thought 180 Lbs.
    Took a spot check stats for his first 3 seasons 1938-1940. He led all AL 2nd basemen in almost all offensive stats and was second in walks with 432 only 4 behind the leader.
    Anyway, after all these years following the game, I see Joe Gordon a lot better that I thought he was.

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    30 home runs in a season, right handed Yankees, 1923-1975:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-11 at 1.28.23 PM.png

    Leave a comment:

  • 1905 Giants
    Early Baseball Fan

  • 1905 Giants
    replied
    I have to say I also gained more respect for Ted Kluzweski (if that's right) too.

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Does anyone know what Mickey's right handed slash line was at Yankee Stadium?

    We can't really compare these two fairly without that.
    Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User
    Last edited by Floyd Gondolli; 05-11-2020, 10:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:

  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    Dan Duquette ruined me

  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    replied
    Commerce Comet.

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Credit goes to Layson for this work, not I:

    DiMaggio vs Mantle runs & RBI's

    AL numbers, with pitchers removed:

    573622 PA- DiMaggio league
    68450 RBI- league
    71.6 RBI's per 600 PA's- league
    120 RBI's per 600 PA's- DiMaggio (126 road)
    RBI's above avg.= 68%- DiMaggio (76% road)

    892311 PA- Mantle league
    94741 RBI- league
    63.7 RBI's per 600 PA's- league
    91 RBI's per 600- Mantle
    RBI's above avg.= 43%- Mantle (43% road)

    .128 R/PA- DiMaggio league
    76.8 runs per 600 PA's- league
    108.7 runs per 600 PA's- DiMaggio
    Runs above avg.= 41.5%- DiMaggio
    Road runs above avg.= 49.3%

    .113 R/PA- Mantle league
    67.8 runs per 600 PA's- Mantle league
    101.4 runs per 600 PA's- Mantle
    Runs above average= 49.6%- Mantle
    Road runs above avg.= 49.6%

    Leave a comment:

  • drstrangelove
    Registered User

  • drstrangelove
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    How far do you want to go with this.
    We both made points and I think that's all one can really do. Ultimately, each person has to decide how to weigh them.

    Leave a comment:

  • 64Cards
    Registered User

  • 64Cards
    replied
    Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    I might agree if Yankee wasn't his home park.
    Good point, although when he was a kid in Commerce, Ok he had no clue where he would end up playing. If he had only hit RH it certainly would have negatively affected his HR production.

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
    Most of our evaluations of players even simply our decisions in life are based upon common sense, imperfect information, intuition and experience. No one waits for perfect indisputable evidence to decide something.

    This is what we know:

    1) Players say batting from one side negatively affects batting from the other side
    2) Players say that learning to be a SH takes a lot of work, and that maintaining the skill takes a lot of work
    3) Common sense for each person says that using a bat on the opposite of our natural side would be highly difficult and require a tremendous investment of time

    We can't prove with 100% certainty that Joe DiMaggio would have hit better in a neutral park. We can't prove Willie Mays would have stolen more bases in the modern era. We can't prove Ty Cobb would have performed better in the live ball era if he had been born 15 years later. We calculate those things to be so likely true that it should be assumed to be so even though technically "how could we ever know for sure."

    We make calculations, evaluate opinions carefully,discuss and decide.

    To me it's common sense: everyone who does it says SH is difficult to learn and difficult to do. If Mantle spent 2/3 of his time, effort, practice, experience on the LH side, how can we shrug our shoulders to the effect on his RH side?

    Why would I take the position that I need perfect proof when I don't need that anywhere else?
    How far do you want to go with this.
    This is just common sense, we have no way of knowing what Mick may have done for a career batting RH, it never happened.
    How is this, I'm even willing to give some ground. Yes Mick may have performed better with a career as a RH batter.
    All I'm saying is we don't know if he would have perfomed better, not better or about the same.
    If your going to say for sure he would have performed better whats there to debate.
    I never said he would not, I only said I said I don't know, no one can know.

    Leave a comment:

  • Dude Paskert
    The Grand Poobah of Sweat

  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by 64Cards View Post
    Mantle’s dad was the one who started him as a SH when he was a kid. According to legend when Mick was playing in a HS game he was frustrated batting LH and decided to hit RH against a RH pitcher and his dad yanked him from the game.

    If a guy is a natural LH hitter he will already have a significant advantage, because generally 2/3 of pitching is RH. I would think that unless you take to SH very easily it may be better, if you hit LH to spend that extra time concentrating on hitting the breaking pitch from a LH rather than learning a whole new skill set in trying to hit RH.

    Interesting that Mantle’s career BA was almost 50 points higher as RH, although his OBP was only 6 points higher and SLG about 30. Just for the hell of it I checked Mays and Aaron BA vs RH pitching…Mays only had a 5 point differential, Aaron had 20. So maybe looking at the big picture Mantle may have been better off just as a RH hitter.
    I might agree if Yankee wasn't his home park.

    Leave a comment:

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