No announcement yet.

Historical Thread:

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Historical Thread:

    Since we've recently received requests for more historical stuff in History Forum, I will do what I can to show good quality stuff. I will try to stimulate discussion, if I can. Here is the first attempt. This 'thread' is basicly a compilation of miscellaneous posts that I hope will prove themselves useful to all. Not a 'real' thread at all, simply collection of individual posts, which I hoped could prove helpful in some way.

    Does anyone want to discuss sports writers?
    The Sports Writers:

    Who were the best/most influential baseball writers? I thought I'd take a shot. So here goes. First those who wrote the sport of baseball the best.

    Henry Chadwick---1856-1908, NY sp.wr.,author; Family moved Brooklyn,NY(Sept.21,1837); NY Times cricket reports(1856), Brooklyn Eagle cricket,BB ed.(1856-94), NY Herald, NY World sp wr(13yrs), NY Sun(6yrs), Sp. News, Sp. Life, Yankee Clipper(1858-?) Ball Players' Chronicle(1867-69). In 1896, NL voted him pension for life.Editor-in-chief of NL Spalding baseball guide until his death(1881-08

    Tim Murnane---1888-1917, Boston sports writer; former ML 1B(1872-78,84), Founded Boston Referee(1885), Boston Globe spwr. & sp.ed.(1888-1917,Feb.7, death). President: New England L. : 24 yrs. Buried: Old Calvary Cemetery, Roslindale, MA

    Sam Crane-----1890-1925, NY sp. wr.; Studied civil engineering at MIT for 2 yrs.,ML best 2nd baseman(1880-90), managed Buffalo in NL(1879-80) & Cincinnati(U,1884). Old Atlantic League Pres.(1895), New York Press sp.wr.(1890-98), NY Journal(1898-1925).

    Francis Charles Richter------1868-1926, Phil. sportswriter; Was editor-in-chief of Reach Official American League Base Ball Guide(1902-1926,Feb.12, death); Died the day after the manuscript of the 1925 Reach Guide was completed. Drew up National Agreement(1883), helped place Phil Club in AA(1882), Helped place Phil club in NL(1883),helped assimilate AA into NL(1891), drew up Millenium Plan which ended BB war. Richly deserves BB Hall of Fame.Whole existence-BB

    William B. Hanna--------1884-1930, NY,Kansas City spwr.; Grad. Lafayette College,Easton,PA(1878);Kansas City Star,Arrived NYC(1888), NY Herald, NY Press(1893),NY Sun(1900-16), NY Herald('16-24), Herald-Tribune('24-May,'30,death);Acknowledged expert on baseball, football & billiards.

    Charles Dryden---------1893-1921, Chicago sp.wr.; Chicago Sunday Times reporter(1889-1890), San Francisco examiner sp.wr.(1890), NY Evening Journal(1898-99), Phil. North American(1899-1905), Chicago Tribune('06-08), Chicago Examiner('08-17), Chicago Herald & Examiner('18-21). He was one of the 1st, most popular & most influential baseball writers who ever lived. Humorist influenced a generation of following baseball writers, such as Ring Lardner and Hugh Keough. Suffered devastating stoke('21) left him disabled. Awarded Spink award('65).

    Jake Morse------------1884-1915, Boston sports writer; Grad. Roxbury Latin Sch.(1877), Harvard College(1881), Boston U. Law Sch.(1884); Boston Herald(1884-1907, sp.ed.1884-1901), Secretary of New England Baseball League, became insurance man(1915), Wrote a history of Baseball(Sphere & Ash,1888).Helped launch Baseball Magazine('08) & was one of its' Presidents & editors 'til 1912. Boston Traveler( ?-37, death).Managed Boston Nationals(U,1884)

    Walter Barnes-------------1889-1939, Boston sports writer; Boston Post reporter(1889-1891), Boston Journal sp.ed.(1891-06,Oct.), Boston Herald sp.ed.('06-11), Boston Globe('11-33)(sp.ed.'14-33)(Emeritus,'33-40).

    John B. Foster--------1888-1941, NY spwr.; Norwalk HS, OH; st. ed.; Clev. Press gen. rep. & state ed., Clev. Leader sp.ed.(?-1888), Arrived NYC (1896), NY Evening Telegraph sp.ed. & city ed.(1896-11), NY Journal, NY Herald, NY Sun (1920-31), Consolidated Press Ass. (1918-20), Credited with promoting Army Navy game at the Polo Grounds into national interest. Years on BB 's rules committee. Considered an authority on BB law, rules, admin. Credited with answering 500,000 questions on BB rules, laws, and various phases of BB. Wrote digest of rules for the French. Was named official authority for rules for Japan. Official scorer at Polo Grounds. Couldn't attend games after '32, due to right side paralyzed. Followed BB via radio,papers. Giants' Secretary & business manager(Jan. 6, '13-1919, Dec. 4); Paralyzed on his right side his last 9 yrs. Editor-in-Chief of Spalding
    Official NL Base Ball Guide (1908-1941).

    Hugh Keough-------------1888-1912, Chicago sp.wr.; Hamilton Spectator(Ontario) reporter, 1881, Sporting Journal(1888-1890), Chicago Times reporter, sp.ed.(1891-94), San Francisco Chronicle sp.ed.(1895), New Orleans Item(1896), Lake County Times man.ed.(1900-05), d. after 6 wk. illness. Chicago Tribune sp. wr. & columnist (1905-12). While at The Chicago Tribune, he started and made famous The Wake of the News from 1905-12. It's thought to be the oldest, continuous sports column in the US. Worked newspapers 31 yrs.

    John B. Sheridan--------1880's-1929, St. Louis spwr. (1880's-1929); Sporting News column, "Back of Home Plate", Dec.5,1918 - 1929,Apr.18; Started on St. Louis Globe-Democrat(1880's), Post-Dispatch, The Republic, Globe-Democrat. Missouri Committee on Public Utility Information manager,1921-. While on Committee, he blew the whistle on some corrupt practices, and then tendered his resignation. Shortly thereafter he suffered nervous disorders, and received profess. care in sanitarium. Buried: Catholic Calvary Cemetey., St. Louis, MO. Sherry's column for Sporting News "Back of Home Plate", 1917-29, gained for him national respect as a baseball writer. He also wrote with authority on boxing, golf, and most sports. Personally, I suspect that his physical problems, which started soon after he exposed government corruption, was a result of sabotage. I also suspect his
    so-called "suicide" may have been unsuspected homicide.
    He was found hanging in his room at Alexian Brothers Hospital, by a bathrobe cord.

    Henry Edwards-------1898-1942, Cleveland sports writer, AL service bureau; Cleveland recorder sp.ed.(1898-1901,Apr.), Cleveland Plain Dealer sp.ed.(July 29,'01-'28,Feb.1), Amer. League service bureau, Chicago(Feb.1,'28-42,Feb.1).

    Bill Phelon------------1888-1925, Chi. NY,Cincinnati sp.wr.;Chi. Daily News('88-05,Oct.),Chi. Daily Journal(Oct.'05-08),Chi. Tribune('08-10),NY Morning Telegraph(1910),Cincinnati Times-Star sp.ed.(spring,'10-25). Easily most colorful eccentric sportswriter ever lived. Rube Waddell of BWAA. A great book should be written about him. As a writer,Bill was one of the best,and one of the most prolific. He was an associate editor of Baseball Magazine(Mar.'13-24,Nov.). He had replaced Jake Morse(Boston sp.wr.),who himself had encyclopedic BB knowledge of all things baseball. Also was Cincinnati correspondent for theSporting News. From 1889-1915, had scored over 3,500 ballgames. Made all road trips with Reds. Total home team rooter. Died after 3 days of Bright's disease. As a complete authority of baseball, he lived the game. Had been famous amateur ballplayer & boxer,was
    an actor, wrote for the stage, studied Indian lore,
    wrote baseball poetry, was twice married with a son; Contributed to Weekly BB Guide,Chicago BB News, Herald Examiner, NY World,

    Charles Van Loan---------1904-1910, SF,LA,NY sp. wr.; Was one of best baseball storytellers of his age. He was called the greatest baseball writer by several of his peers. d. chronic nephritis at Philadelphia Hosp., Was on East Coast on business

    Grantland Rice------------1902-1954, Atlanta, NY spwr.; edu: Wallace Univ. Sch. Nashville,TN; Vanderbilt U. ed. The American Golfer; Nashville Daily News; Atlanta Journal sp.ed (1902-05); Cleveland News (1905-07); Nashville Tennessean spwr.(1907-10); NY Evening Mail sp. columnist (1910-13), NY Tribune spwr. & syndicated columnist (1913-24), NY Herald Tribune (1924-54). Wrote many books, and contributed to numerous magazines. The quinessential Southern Gentleman, Granny Rice was without a shadow of a doubt the most well-known & loved spwr. of his & perhaps all times. His autobiography was, "The Tumult & the Shouting: My Life in Sport", 1954. Buried: Woodlawn Cemetery, NY

    Harry Salsinger-------1907-1958, Detroit News sports editor his whole career. Was Ty Cobb's biggest booster in print.

    Ferdinand Cole Lane-------1910-1937, Editor-in-Chief Baseball Magazine(Boston,'10-12), ('12-38, NYC). Wrote probably close to 1,000 excellent detailed articles on baseball's technical side as well as interviews w/stars at home in winter. H of Fame must.

    After retiring in 1937 from the editor's chair, he returned to Cape Cod for his long life. Headed Piedmont College's Hist. Dept.('41-43) at Demorest, GA. Established journalism program there. He traveled extensively with wife Emma, whom he married in June, 1914. Together they made many overseas voyages,circling globe 6 times. Wrote several books on geography & nature for adults & youths, '40's-50's. Publ. his poems in '58(On Old Cape Cod). Lived their final yrs. in Cape Cod nursing home, she died 10 months after him.

    Fred Lieb--------------1910-1977, NYC Sports writer; Phil. News bureau(magazine & newspaper('10), New York Press, baseball ed.('11-16), NY Morning Sun('16-21), NY Telegram, baseball ed.('21-27), NY Evening Post(Mar.'27-34), moved to St. Petersberg,FL('34). Sporting News correspondent('35-58) & columnist('43-47), St. Petersburg Times(Florida)('65-77). Feb.,'80-Jun.5,1980 nursing home Houston,TX. World Series scorer('22-24), covered World Series('11-58). Sporting News historian for yrs. edu; Phila Central Manual Training HS, Pa. assoc ed, weekly Baseball Guide; writer, Christy Walsh Syndicate; past assoc ed, baseball Magazine, Sport-life. chief official scorer, World's Series, 1922-23-24;

    Dan Daniel---------1910-1960's, NY spwr.; national correspondent for TSN, mainly covered Yankees, was as much an authority in boxing as BB. NY World-Telegram, NY World-Telegram & Sun, Helped found Ring Magazine in 1922, Could also handle FB. Pres. BBWAA, Baseball Rules committee, Won Spink Award in 1972, BB's Hall of Fame Veterans committee, Chairman of NY chapter of BWAA, more honors/awards than can be listed. buried: Forrest Lawn Memorial Gardens, Pompano Beach, FL

    Frank Graham, Jr.-------1915-1964, NYC spwr; Born Harlem,NYC; NY Sun spwr('15-34), sports columnist('34-43), Look magazine sp. ed.('43-45), NY Journal-American sports columnist, Graham's Corner('45-65). Wrote 6 sports books. Boxing authority. d. Fractured skull in bathroom fall at home

    Alan Gould---------1921-1963, NY spwr; Worked for papers in Elmira, Ithaca & Binghamton, NY; Ithaca Journal reporter (1917); Associated Press, NY sp. ed. , Executive editor, ('22-63). Moved Florida ('75). d. heart attack

    Jack McDonald------1926-1986, San Francisco sports writer; Omaga Bee,Klamath Falls News, Sacramento Bee, Sacramento Union, San Fran. United Press Bureau, San Fran. Call('26-?),SF Call-Bulletin'26-59)('47-59, sp.ed.), SF News-Call Bulletin('59-65), San Francisco Examiner rewrite man('65-67,Jan. 25, retired), After retirement moved to Mexico to enjoy the good life, but just couldn't stop writing free lance. In 1978, moved back to San Diego.

    Jimmy Powers-----1925-1959, NY spwr.; Cleveland Press, '25-26, NY sp. ed. NEA syndicate('27-28), NY News, '29--33, NY Daily News, 1936-59.

    Sam Lacy----------1918-1990's, Wash, Baltimore spwr; His mother was Shinnecock Indian; Grew up Wash. DC, 5 blocks from Griffith stadium, Grad. Howard U., bachelor's in physical education('23). Devoted his early life to lobbying for integration of ML baseball & society. Washington Tribune: part-time spwr., reporter('18-20,23-30), managing ed., spwr.,('30-34), sp.ed., columnist('34-39); Baltimore Afro-American spwr., columnist('39-40), sp.ed., columnist('43-, Chicago Defender ass. national ed.('40-43), 1st Black in the Baseball Writers Association('48), Taylor Spink Award(Baseball Hall of Fame, 1997), Personally knew many black stars(J.Louis,J.Owens,A.Ashe), but never shirked from criticizing them if he felt warranted. Mentor: Father

    Charles Michael Segar-------1920-1971, Brooklyn,NY sports writer; Born England, Brooklyn Citizen('19-26), New York Mirror('26-46), Manager of National Service Bureau, Secretary-Treasurer in Commissioner's office('65-71,Feb), administrator players benefit plan, Chairman Players Rules Committee('62-71,lJul.23), Blue Book revision committee. Loved golf, movies, TV, d. natural causes, cremated, buried: Pinelawn Cemetery, Long Island, NY

    Shirley Povich-------1922-1998, Washington spwr.' Washington Post spwr. (1922-74), Even though he "retired" in '74, he continued his column "This Morning", very often.

    Dick Young---------1942-1987, NY spwr.; NY Daily News sportswriter, columnist, sp. ed. (1942-82), NY post spwr. and sp. ed. NY Post (1982-87).

    Walter Wellesley (Red) Smith-----1927-1982, Milwaukee Sentinel('27-28),St. Louis Star sp. wr. & copy ed.('28-33), St. Louis Star-Times re-write man('33-36), Phil. Record sp. rep. & columnist(''36-45), NY Herald Tribune sp. columnist('45-67, Publishers-Hall Syndicate.('67-71), NY Times('71-82). Similar to Grantland Rice in style. Grace, humor, brimming with gentle, lyrical prose. Much loved writer.

    Bob Broeg----------1945-2000, St. Louis spwr.; St. Louis Post-Dispatch staff writer, 1945-58, sp. ed. '58-85, & ass. to publisher '77-85. His columns appeared in TSN until the 1980's.

    Furman Bisher--------1938-2004, Atlanta sp. ed.; Lumberton Voice ed.('38-39),High Point Enterprise wire service & sp. ed.('39-40),Charlotte News(state ed.,'40-42, sp.ed.,46-50),Atlanta Constitution sp.ed.('50-57),Atlanta Journal & Sunday Journal-Constitution('57-pres.),Sp.News columnist

    Leonard Koppett------1948-2003, Born Moscow, moved US 1928, NY Herald sp. wr.('48-54), NY Post sp.wr.('54-63), NY Times sp.wr.('63-73), NY Times correspondent in Palo Alto,CA('73-78), Peninsula Times-Tribune sp. ed.(Palo Alto,CA, '79-93). Spink Award (BB, Hall of Fame, '93). Leonard was vastly interested in history, opera, classical music, Marx Bros. movies. He thought expansion was a disaster for baseball. He was also vastly interested in a statistical analysis approach to baseball.

    John Steadman--------1945-2000, Baltimore sports writer; Baltimore News-Post reporter(1945,sp.ed., - 1956), Baltimore News-American,Baltimore Evening Sun('80's), Baltimore Sun('95-2000,Dec.3). wrote 7 books, d. cancer

    Joe Falls--------------1951-2004, NY & Detroit spwr; AP copyboy, NYC ('46-51), NY spwr.('51-53), AP sp. ed., Det.,('53-56), Detroit Times spwr.('56-60), Detroit Free Press spwr.('60-65) sp.ed. & columnist('66-78), Detroit News sp.ed. & columnist;Sporting News correspondent('65-85).

    Next we had those who began as baseball beat writers, but went on to gain fame in other fields, far more than they ever had as BB writers. Ade, Adams, and Dunne gained fame as Will Rogers type whimsical humorists.

    George Ade---------1890-1900, Chicago spwr.; Chicago Record (1890-1900) covered many sports. Grad. Purdue U. 1887, did newspaper work from 1887, moved Chicago June, 1890, moved quickly from cub to star reporter. In '93, collaborated with illustrator partner John McCutcheon at Chicago Morning News on editorial page columns describing Columbian Exposition, then he began his regular column "Stories of the Streets and of the Town". Paper became the Record. Began "fables in slang" in 1897. The Record published 8 collections of his columns. Left jornalism in 1900, did plays, musicals, screenplays. Was acknowleged as great master humorist.

    Franklyn J. Adams------1919-1962, NY sp. wr.; Sporting News(St. Louis), New York Herald Tribune('27-30), NY Daily News sp. wr.('30-62,retired), After service in world War I, he began his sports-writing career, which included 15 newspapers.

    Finley Peter Dunne-----1884-1904, Chicago writer; Political cartoonist created Mr. Dooley, saloon owner, wry observations on issues entertained readers for 30 yrs. His cartoons are collected in book forms. Chicago Daily News editorials & sports(1884-88), Chicago Times('1888-89) as political reporter,ed.wr. ,city ed.,Chicago Tribune reporter,ed.Sunday ed., Chicago Herald reporter(1890), Chicago Evening Post ed. page(1892), Chicago Journal managing ed.(1897-00), NYC Harper's Weekly/collier's Weekly('00-02), NY Morning Telegraph('02-04),American Magazine wrote dialect essays & monthly ed. In the Interpreter's House('06-13),Collier's Weekly political commentary('13-15,editor-in-chief '17-19). When Payne Whitney died in 1924, he bequeathed $500,000. to Dunne, far more than enough to enable Dunne
    to live the rest of his life in high lavish fashion without
    need of further work. d. throat cancer hemorrhaging after long battle.

    Runyon gained fame as a free-lance novelist, who specialized in sketching broadway types & gangsters.

    Damon Runyon---------1911-1917, NYC sp. wr. & author; Arrived NYC('11), served 1912-16 as Hearst foreign correspondent in Mexico & Europe. Made his name as author of novels with colorful Broadway characters. Many of his novels were used for movies,such as Guys & Dolls('55), Double Indemnity('44), Idyll of Miss Sarah Brown('55), Little Miss Marker, with Shirley Temple('34), Lemon-Drop Kid('51), Lady For A Day('33), A Slight Case of Murder('38), d. developed throat cancer('38), lost speech('44), after operation.

    Lardner made it by syndicating his stuff, with BB characters who talked in slang dialects, spiced with lots of humor. His copy lost a lot of its punch in the 1920's. He had hit big in the 1910's.

    Ring Lardner----------1907-1919, Chicago,NY,Boston sports writer; Chicago Inter Ocean('07-10), Chicago Examiner('10),Chicago Tribune('10), Sporting News man. ed.('10),Boston American,sp.ed.(Feb.'11-'11,Oct), Chicago American,copy reader,Chicago Examiner,sp.writer; Equally good at BB & FB
    (Lardner, continued), Chicago Tribune(June,'12-19), Conducted The Wake of the News for the Chicago Tribune from June, 1913 to June, 1919, when he left for NYC. Oldest, continuous sp. column in US. NY Bell Syndicate of John N. Wheeler('19-27). When he went to work for the Bell Syndicate of John Wheeler, he wrote a weekly column, moved his family from Chicago to NYC, traveled the US covering major sporting events, continued his fiction for magazines. In 1932, he published a series of autobiographical articles for Saturday Evening Post. Ring was diagnosed with TB. He died following a heart attack. He became extremely disillusioned with baseball after 1920, due to the live ball style of HRs.

    Broun gained his most renoun as a left-of-center social/political columnist.

    Heywood Broun------1912-1919, NY s pwr.; NY Morning Telegraph reporter('08,10-11), NY Evening Sun('09), New York Tribune(copyreader, rewrite man,sports writer,sp.ed.,war correspondent, critic,columnist('11-21), NY World('21-28), NY Telegram('28-31), NY World-Telegram('31-39), NY Post('39), Early as Giants fan, he would root violently for his Giants. In '17-18, WWI, disliked Pershing & sent his copy directly to NY Tribune. Harvard niv. 1910. Lecturer on modern drama, Columbia Univ, 1920; Rand School, NY, 1921; dramatic ed, Vanity Fair; motion picture ed, Judge, NY Contributor to mags on the theatre, books, sports, and politics.

    Broun's twin-mirror opposite was Pegler, who achieved his greatest notoriety as a right-of-center social/political columnist. His flavor was known as just plain mean. Much meaner than Rush Limbaugh today. Closer to Michael Savage, but without the unbridled hysteria.

    Westbrook Pegler----1925-1933, NY spwr.; Des Moines newspaper, United Press office in NY('12),St. Louis,Dallas,TX as a reporter, buss. manager. Went to London, England as foreign correspondent with Amer. Expeditionary Force, '16. Enlisted US Navy. After war, returned to UP('19) in NY office, as spwr. & sp. ed. From 1925-33, Pegler was an extremely high-paid spwr. for the Chicago Tribune. In 1933, he was sent to Washington, DC, to write politics & politicians. He developed an extremely bitterly-biting, critical, ascerbic style of attack journalism. Became feared for his poisoned pen, or type-writer. In 1933, Pegler went nationally syndicated with his "Fair Eough" column for Scripps-Howard, within the Hearst family of papers. He targeted labor union bosses as a menace. In '44, went to NY Journal-American, with "As Pegler Sees It." Pegler became a 1930's & 40's version of Rush Limbaugh & Joe McCarthy. When the Political Right unleashed it's dogs of war, Pegler was the lead dog. In 1949, Westbrook Pegler attacked Quentin Reynolds so bitterly, that Quentin sued him for libel & won. Louis Nizer was Reynold's Jewish attorney, who won for him $175,000. and earned the enmity of Pegler for Jews.
    But after that Pegler's career didn't seem to have it's former impetus.
    The case had lasted 5 yrs.

    Ed Sullivan started as a NYC BB beat writer, and was a sports writer for 12 yrs. before he became a TV personality.

    Ed Sullivan-----------1936-1948, NY spwr; NY Mail, World, Morning Telegraph, Daily News(column "Little Old New York", which he continued till his death; Gained TV immortality for his long-running Sunday night TV variety show, "The Ed Sullivan Show" (June 20,1948- June 6,1971); d. cancer

    Gene Fowler left sports journalism after an 11 yr. career in baseball writing, under his mentor, Damon Runyon, (they both came from Denver, having been trained under Otto Floto), and became a highly sucessful biographer. He used a brightly colorful style.

    Gene Fowler--------1917-1928, New York spwr.; NY American sp. wr.(Oct.'17-24), NY Daily Mirror sp.ed.(24-25), NY American man. ed.('25-28), NY Morning Telegraph('28), free lance biographer('28-60). Himself a true character, known for his many affairs. Hollywood script writer. Biographies: William Fallon, famous NYC attorney(The Great Mouthpiece,'31), John Barrymore(Good Night, Sweet Prince,'43), Jimmy Walker,NYC mayor,'26-32(Beau James,'49), Jimmy Durante(Schnozzola,'51), Minutes of the Last Meeting(W.C. Fields) edu; West Denver HS, Colo; Univ of Colo; Univ of Colo Sch. of Journalism

    Taylor Spink seldom wrote anything himself personally. He'd have one of his writers to it for him. He was owner/editor-in-chief of Sporting News for 48 yrs. He made it into the greatest sports paper ever put out. It was baseball only from 1900 until WWII, and then broadened into an all-inclusive sports newspaper. He was a fanatical, relentless, perfectionist, inexhaustable boss. And his paper proved it. Doubt if there will ever be anything like it again.

    JG Taylor Spink---------1914-1962, inherited The Sporting News from his Dad in 1914, and owned, guided the best sports publication ever until his death in Dec., 1962. After his death, an award was created for the best sports writers, the Spink Award. It's a lifetime achievement award for the sports writing profession.

    So, folks. Here are my candidates for the greatest, most influential, best sports writers, I've ever read. Some of their careers were relatively short & sweet. Others, like Lieb and Povich, lasted forever. But both were fantastic in shaping our national pastime & making it was it is today. There are many, many writers who I love, who are not mentioned here.
    Some of my Favorite Sports Writers:

    1. Tim Murnane: 1888-1917: 29 yrs.
    2. Sam Crane: 1890-1925: 35 yrs.
    3. Francis Richter: 1868-1926: 58 yrs.
    4. William B. Hanna: 1884-1930: 26 yrs.
    5. Charles S. Dryden: 1893-1921: 28 yrs.
    6. Walter S. Barnes: 1889-1939: 50 yrs.
    7. John B. Foster: 1888-1941: 53 yrs.
    8. Hugh Keogh: 1882-1912: 30 yrs.
    9. John B. Sheridan: 1880's-1929: 40 yrs.
    10. Henry Edwards: 1898-1942: 44 yrs.
    11. Bill Phelon: 1888-1925: 37 yrs.
    12. Grant Rice: 1902-1952: 50 yrs.
    13. Ferdinand C. Lane: 1910-1937: 27 yrs.
    14. Fred Lieb: 1910-1977: 67 yrs.
    15. Shirley Povich: 1922-1998: 76 yrs.
    16. Red Smith: 1927-1982: 55 yrs.
    17. Bill James: 1975-2006: 31 yrs.
    The above list of sports writers is excerted from my Sports Writers Index, which can be viewed in its entirety at: on the file called Sports Writers Index

    Bill Burgess
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-20-2008, 06:39 PM.

  • #2
    Here is my 2nd attempt to stimulate discussion.
    Originally posted by 538280
    You, Bill, like to show us results of various surveys of baseball men that showed Cobb being the #1 player of all time. Almost all of those surveys were done prior to 1950, because after that Ruth seemed to carry the polls.
    Not so.

    Only 4 were prior to 1950.
    11 were during the 1950's.
    2 were from the 1960's.
    6 were from the 1990's.

    And as proof, here they are again.

    Historical Polls/Surveys:

    As a service to the good guys of Fever, the best-informed fans I've had the good luck to run into, I'm going to dip deep into the storied Bill Burgess musty, dusty File Cabinet of Baseball Lore. I'd like to share some of my personal collection of past surveys/polls. So here is another Historical File. Hope you enjoy it. I have included it into my All-Time All-Star Teams File. Available to all who request it. Just provide a private email address & it will be emailed to that address.

    1931 Poll, conducted by the Philadelphia Public Ledger, C. William Duncan. July, 1933;

    Cobb 55 points, Wagner 38 points, Ruth 17 points, Lajoie 13, Collins 12, Keeler 7, Simmons 6, Speaker 4, Joe Jackson 3, Sisler 3, Klein 3, Hornsby 2,
    Parent 2, Ferguson, Chase & Terry = 1 point.

    (Voters: Connie Mack, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Wilbert Robinson, Dan Howley, Bucky Harris, Joe McCarthy, Bill McKechnie, Kid Gleason, Walter Johnson, Jim Burke, Gabby Street)

    Tabulation went thusly: 1st place vote = 5 points, 2nd place = 4 votes, 3rd place = 3 points, 2nd place = 2 points, 1st place = 1 point.

    1936 --- Original Hall of Fame vote, Feb. 2, 1936, votes counted at the Commissioner's office in Chicago, IL.

    226 Total Voters; 169 votes were required for induction. Only the 1st 5 received that many.

    Cobb 222, Wagner 215, Ruth 215, Mathewson 205, Johnson 189, Lajoie 146, Speaker 133, Young 111, Hornsby 105, Cochrane 80, Sisler 77, E. Collins 60, J. Collins 58, Alexander 55, Gehrig 51, Bresnahan 47, Keeler 40, Waddell 33, Foxx 21, Walsh 20, Delahanty 17, Traynor 16, Frisch 14, Grove 12, Chase 11, Ross Youngs 10, Terry 9, Kling 8, Lou Criger 7, Evers 6, M. Brown 6, Chance 5, Schalk 4, McGraw 4, Simmons 4, Bender 2, Roush 2, Joe Jackson 2, and one each for Crawford, Baker, Bradley, Elberfeld, Connie Mack, Marquad, and Nap Rucker.

    Sporting News staff, Jan. 20, 1938, 17 voters
    1B Gehrig 8, Sisler 7, Chase 2
    2B Lajoie 8, Collins 4, Hornsby 3, Gehringer2
    SS Wagner 17
    3B Collins 9, Traynor 8
    LF Cobb 17
    CF Speaker 14, Jackson 1, Delehanty 1, Clarke 1
    RF Ruth 17
    C Cochrane 12, Bresnahan 6, Ewing 4, Kling 4, Hartnett 3, Dickey 2, Schalk 2, M. Kelly 1
    P Johnson 13, Mathewson 12, Grove 8, Young 4, Alexander 4, Hubbel 4, Waddell 3, Plank 2, Coombs 1

    1942 - Sporting News, April 2, 1942, 102 former players, managers.

    Cobb 60, Wagner 17, Ruth 11, Hornsby 2, 10 players received 1 vote each: Delahanty, Gehrig, Speaker, DiMaggio, Ott, Sisler, E. Collins, W. Johnson, Mathewson, Jerry Denny.

    1950 Christy Walsh's Poll/Survey of 500 Sports Writers;
    Connie Mack/7 sports writers Committee Announced July 7, 1952

    The "All-America Committee" of sports writers was comprised of: Jack Malaney (Boston Press", Ed Bang (Cleveland News), John E. Wray (St. Louis Post-Dispatch), Christy Walsh (Syndicate Head), Tom Swope (Cincinnati Post), Harry Keck (Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph). Connie Mack also voted.

    1B Sisler
    2B Collins
    SS Wagner
    3B Traynor
    LF Cobb
    CF Speaker
    RF Ruth
    C Cochrane / Dickey
    U IF Frisch, U OF DiMaggio
    P Johnson, Mathewson, Young, Alexander
    Hubbell, Grove

    1950 Sports Writers Poll: Who Was the Greatest Baseball Player Ever?

    Ruth 253, Cobb 116, Gehrig 8, Walter Johnson 7, DiMaggio 5, Wagner 2, Mathewson 2.

    1952, Feb., Baseball Writers Ass. Of America, 164 spwr.
    Big Time Baseball (Magazine), 164 Spwr. & 76 celebrities

    1B Gehrig 124, Sisler 56, Terry, Chase, Foxx, Greenberg
    2B Hornsby 107, Gehringer, Collins, Lajoie, Frisch, Gordon
    SS Wagner 192, Marion, Cronin, Maranville, Rizzuto, Appling, Boudreau 27
    3B Traynor 118, Collins 50, Baker, Rolfe, Dykes, Dugan
    LF Cobb 224, Jackson
    CF DiMaggio 107, Speaker 105
    RF Ruth 234, Williams
    C Dickey 109, Cochrane 92, Bresnahan 20, Schalk, Hartnett, Kling, Ruel, Schang, Campanella
    P Johnson 117, Mathewson 72, Alexander 16, Grove 11, Dean, Hubbell, Pennock, Waddell, Feller

    Sport Magazine, May 1951
    National League

    1B Terry
    2B Hornsby
    SS Wagner
    3B Traynor
    LF Musial
    CF -
    RF Ott
    C Hartnett
    P Mathewson

    Sport Magazine, May 1951
    American League

    1B Sisler
    2B Lajoie
    SS Boudreau
    3B Collins
    LF Cobb
    CF DiMaggio
    RF Ruth
    C Cochrane
    P Johnson

    Complete Baseball (Magazine), Fall, 1951, AL, voted on by panel of 7 spwr.

    1B Sisler, Gehrig, Foxx
    2B Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer
    SS Boudreau, Appling, Cronin
    3B Collins, Baker, Kell
    LF Cobb, DiMaggio, Keeler,
    CF Speaker, Simmons, J. Jackson
    RF Ruth, Simmons, Williams
    C Cochrane, Dickey, Schalk
    RHP Johnson
    LHP Grove

    Complete Baseball (Magazine), Summer, 1951, NL, voted on by panel of 7 spwr.

    1B Terry, Chance, Bottomley
    2B Hornsby, Frisch, Evers
    SS Wagner, Marion, Bancroft
    3B Traynor, Lindstrom, Hack
    LF Musial, Ott, Wilson
    CF Waner, Youngs, Hafey
    RF Roush, Clarke, Medwick
    C Hartnett, Bresnahan, Kling
    RHP Alexander, Mathewson, Dean
    LHP Hubbell, Rixey, Marquard

    Sporting News, Jan. 2, 1957

    1B Sisler
    2B Hornsby
    SS Wagner
    3B Collins
    LF Cobb
    CF Speaker
    RF Ruth
    C Cochrane
    P Mathewson, Young, Johnson, Alexander
    Manager: McGraw

    Sport Magazine, Oct., 1958, over 120 total votes
    National League

    1B Terry 89
    2B Hornsby
    SS Wagner
    3B Traynor
    LF Musial
    CF Waner 54, Mays 46
    RF Ott
    C Hartnett
    P Mathewson, Hubbell 95

    Sport Magazine, Sept., 1958, over 120 total votes
    American League

    1B Gehrig, Sisler
    2B Collins
    SS Cronin
    3B Collins, Baker
    LF Cobb 104
    CF DiMaggio 48, Speaker 47
    RF Ruth 107
    C Dickey 59, Cochrane 50
    P Johnson, Grove 105
    M. McGraw 105, Stengel 53, Mack 35, McCarthy 33, Huggins

    Baseball Writers Ass. Of America/Baseball Announcers, July 5, 1958, 238 total votes
    All-Star Game's Silver Anniversary:

    1B Gehrig 124, Sisler 78
    2B Hornsby 125, Collins 60, Gehringer, Lajoie, Frisch
    SS Wagner 209, Cronin 7
    3B Traynor 199, Collins 23
    LF Cobb 211, Williams 40
    CF Speaker 111, DiMaggio 52
    RF Ruth 228, Musial
    C Dickey 105, Cochrane 93, Hartnett, Berra
    P Grove 213, Johnson 196, Hubbell 173, Mathewson 135, Young 56, Alexander 36, Feller 29
    Manager: McGraw, Stengel
    Coaches: Art Fletcher, Chuck Dressen

    Sept. 7, 1963: Academy of Sports Editors, a private survey organization which solicits votes from 100 sports editors of papers in the 100,000 plus class.

    Greatest Ever Player: AL: Cobb 91%, Ruth 90%, DiMaggio, 63%; W. Johnson 48%, T. Williams 45%, Gehrig 43%, Speaker, 43%, Sisler 20%, E. Collins 18%, Feller 17%.

    Greatest Ever Player: NL: Wagner 71%, Musial 70%, Mathewson 57%, Alexander 53%, Spahn 42%, Mays 38%, Terry 23%, Ott 20%, Frisch 15%.

    1969 Sporting News Centennial, All-Time Team

    1B Gehrig, Sisler, Musial
    2B Hornsby, Gehringer, Collins,
    SS Wagner, Cronin, Banks
    3B Traynor, B. Robinson, J. Robinson
    OF Ruth, Cobb, DiMaggio, T. Williams, Speaker, Mays
    C Cochrane, Dickey, Campanella
    RHP Johnson, Mathewson, Young
    LHP Grove, Koufax, Hubbell

    Oct., 1992 Sports Illustrated, Steve Wulf's personal team for Sports Illustrated

    1B Gehrig
    2B Robinson
    SS Ripken
    3B Schmidt
    LF Cobb
    CF Mays
    RF Ruth
    C Cochrane
    RHP Mathewson
    LHP Spahn
    RP Eckersley
    M; Stengel

    1994, June, Inside Sport Magazine

    1. Ruth, 2. Cobb, 3. Mays, 4. Aaron, 5. Williams, 6. W. Johnson, 7. DiMaggio, 8. Gehrig, 9. Foxx, 10. Mathewson, 11. Alexander, 12. Musial, 13. Mantle, 14. Seaver, 15. Feller, 16. Young, 17. Carlton, 18. Rose, 19. Ryan, 20. Koufax

    Baseball Digest's All-Time Top 10 by Position - 1994

    1B - Gehrig, Foxx, Sisler, Greenberg, McCovey, Terry, Mize, Perez, Cepeda, Murray
    2B - Gehringer, Sandbeg, Frisch, Hornsby, Morgan, Collins, J. Robinson, Lajoie,Herman, Mazeroski
    SS - Smith, Aparicio, Wagner, Appling, Ripken, Boudreau, Banks, Cronin, Reese, Rizzuto
    3B - Schmidt, B. Robinson, Brett, Mathews, Traynor, Nettles, Santo, Hack, Boggs, Kell
    LF - Williams, Musial, J. Jackson, Henderson, Bonds, Simmons, Medwick, Yastrzemski, Brock, Goslin
    CF - Cobb, Mays, DiMaggio, Mantle, Speaker, Snider, Combs, Roush, Puckett, Blair
    RF - Ruth, Aaron, Clemente, F. Robinson, Winfield, Dawson, Kaline, R.Jackson, Ott, Gwynn
    C - Bench, Campanella, Berra, J. Gibson, Dickey, Carter, Fisk, Hartnett, Schalk
    RHP - Johnson, Seaver, Gibson, Alexander, Mathewson, Feller, Palmer, Marichal, Young, Paige
    LHP - Koufax, Carlton, Grove, Spahn, Hubbell, Plank, Ford, Waddell, Gomez ,Kaat
    RP - Gossage, Fingers, Marshall, Sutter, Eckersley, Wilhelm, Radatz, Perranoski, Tekulve, Lee Smith

    BBWAA - July, 1997 - All-Time All-Star Team (numbers show 1st place votes)

    1B - Gehrig 31, Foxx3, Sisler 2, McCovey, Greenberg, Terry, Musial, Murray, McGuire, Thomas
    2B - Hornsbby 17, Morgan 6, J. Robinson 6, Gehringer 4, Lajoie 3, Collins 1, Carew, Sandberg
    SS - Wagner 23, Ripken 6, O. Smith 5, Banks 1, Boudreau, Appling
    3B - Schmidt 21, B. Robinson 6, Mathews 4, Brett 1, Traynor, Rose, Baker, Rosen, Boggs
    LF - Williams 32, Musial 4, Rose, Kiner, Henderson, Bonds
    CF - Mays 25, Cobb 7, DiMaggio 3, Mantle 1, Speaker
    RF - Ruth 31, Aaron 5, F. Robinson 4, Kaline, Clemente, Gwynn
    C - Bench 24, Berra 4, Campanella 4, Cochrane 1, Dickey 1, Hartnett, 1 Fisk
    RHP - Johnson 9, Young 12, Mathewson 5, Feller 4, Gibson 2, Ryan 2, Seaver 1, Maddux 1, Alexander, Marichal
    LHP - Koufax 11, Spahn 11, Grove 8, Carlton 4, Hubbell, 6, Ford 1, Plank 1
    RP - Eckersley 16, Fingers 9, L. Smith 4, Wilhelm 3, Gossage 3, Sutter 1, Quisenberry
    October, 1998
    Sporting News, 100 Greatest Baseball Players

    Red = Negro Leagues; Blue = Pre-1900

    1. Ruth
    2. Mays
    3. Cobb
    4. W. Johnson
    5. Aaron
    6. Gehrig
    7. Mathewson
    8. T. Williams
    9. Hornsby
    10. Musial
    11. DiMaggio
    12. Alexander
    13. Wagner
    14. Young
    15. Foxx
    16. Bench
    17. Mantle
    18. Josh Gibson
    19. Satchel Paige
    20. Clemente
    21. Spahn
    22. F. Robinson
    23. Grove
    24. E. Collins
    25. Rose
    26. Koufax
    27. Speaker
    28. Schmidt
    29. Lajoie
    30. Carlton
    31. Gibson
    32. Seaver
    33. Sisler
    34. Bonds
    35. Joe Jackson
    36. Feller
    37. Greenberg
    38. Banks
    39. Maddux
    40. Berra
    41. Ryan
    42. Ott
    43. Simmons
    44. J. Robinson
    45. Hubbell
    46. Gehringer
    47. Buck Leonard
    48. Reggie Jackson
    49. Gwynn
    50. Campanella
    51. Henderson
    52. Whitey Ford
    53. Clemens
    54. Heilmann
    55. Brett
    56. McCovey
    57. Dickey
    58. Brock
    59. Terry
    60. Morgan
    61. Carew
    62. Waner
    63. Mathews
    64. Palmer
    65. Cochrane
    66. "Cool Papa" Bell
    67. Oscar Charleston
    68. Plank
    69. Killebrew
    70. Traynor
    71. Marichal
    72. Yastrzemski
    73. Lefty Gomez
    74. Robin Roberts
    75. Keeler
    76. Kaline
    77. Eddie Murray
    78. Ripken
    79. Medwick
    80. Brooks Robinson
    81. Stargell
    82. Ed Walsh
    83. Snider
    84. Crawford
    85. Dean
    86. Puckett
    87. Ozzie Smith
    88. Frisch
    89. Goslin
    90. Kiner
    91. McGwire
    92. Klein
    93. Griffey, Jr.
    94. Winfield
    95. Boggs
    96. Rollie Fingers
    97. Perry
    98. Eckersley
    99. Molitor
    100. Early Wynn
    1999 MLB's All-Century Team; Fan Survey/Poll
    Announced October 23, 1999

    1B - Gehrig (1,207,992 votes), McGuire (517,181),
    2B - J. Robinson (788,116), Hornsby (630,761),
    SS - Ripken (669,033 votes), Banks (598,168), Wagner (526,740),
    3B - Schmidt (855,654), B. Robinson (761,700),
    LF - Williams (1,125,583), Rose (629,742 votes), Musial (571,279),
    CF - Mays (1,115,896), DiMaggio (1,054,423), Mantle (988,168), Cobb (777,056) Griffey (645,389),
    RF - Ruth (1,1,158,044 votes), Aaron (1,156,782)
    C - Bench (1,010,403), Berra (1,010,403),
    RHP - Ryan (992,040), Young (867,523), Clemens (601,244), Gibson (582,031), W. Johnson (479,279), Mathewson (249,747)
    LEP - Koufax (970,434), Grove (142,169), Spahn (337,215),

    In this fan survey, a special panel had to add Wagner, Mathewson,
    Grove, Spahn, Musial,

    In 1999, SABR ran a poll, and here are their results.
    --Position Players-----------------Pitchers
    1. Ruth -----2,743-----------------W. Johnson----591
    2. Cobb------1,135-----------------Grove---------139
    3. Mays--------964-----------------Mathewson-----118
    4. Williams----711-----------------Young---------112
    5. Wagner------611-----------------Joss-----------53
    6. Gehrig------375-----------------Koufax---------52
    7. Aaron-------270-----------------N. Ryan--------37
    8. DiMaggio----213-----------------Maddux---------29
    9. Mantle------115-----------------Spahn----------26
    10. Musial-----102-----------------Alexander------20
    11. Hornsby-----82
    12. J. Robinson-58
    13. Clemente----44
    13. J. Jackson--44
    15. Rose--------42
    16. Bonds-------37
    17. Lajoie------36
    18. Foxx--------23
    19. McGuire-----22
    20. Bench-------20
    20. Griffey-----20
    Have tabulated our 2005 Fever votes. So far, here's what I've got for Fever.
    Ruth ------------ 92 supporters (58.85%)
    Cobb ------------ 46 supporters (29.29%)
    Mays ------------ 11 supporters (07.00%)
    Charleston-------- 3 supporters (01.91%)
    Williams-----------2 supporters (01.27%)
    Wagner-----------2 supporters (01.27%)
    Bonds--------------1 supporters (00.63%)
    Gehrig-------------1 supporters (00.63%)
    ----------------157 total supporters
    So at present, Babe is picking up almost 3 out of 5 Fever members support, as the best, while Ty is only picking up 1 every 4 members.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-20-2008, 06:41 PM.


    • #3
      Attempt 3:
      Hitting Stats:

      Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.

      led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
      led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
      2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
      led league---8----4----4----2---7----7---3----7----9----9----0---3--12
      2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
      led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
      2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
      Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
      2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
      Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
      2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
      Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
      2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
      Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
      2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
      Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
      2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
      Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
      2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
      Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
      2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
      Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
      2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
      Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
      Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
      2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
      Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
      2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
      led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
      led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
      2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
      3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
      Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
      led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
      2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
      3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
      Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
      led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
      2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
      3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
      J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
      led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
      2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
      3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
      led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
      3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
      led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
      2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
      3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
      led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
      2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
      3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
      led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
      2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
      3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
      led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
      2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
      3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
      B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
      led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
      2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
      3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
      led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
      2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
      3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
      4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
      led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
      2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
      3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
      led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
      2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
      3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
      led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
      2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
      3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
      led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
      2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
      3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
      led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
      2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
      3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
      led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
      2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
      3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
      led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
      2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
      3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
      led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
      2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
      3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
      led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
      2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
      3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
      led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
      2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
      3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
      led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
      2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
      3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
      led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
      2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
      3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
      led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
      2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
      3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
      led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
      2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
      3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
      led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
      2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
      3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
      led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
      2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
      3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
      led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
      2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
      3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
      led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
      3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
      led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
      2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
      3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
      led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
      3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
      led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
      3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
      led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
      3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
      led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
      2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
      3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
      led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
      2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
      3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 06-28-2006, 06:34 PM.


      • #4
        Attempt #4:
        Links to Bill Burgess' work:

        My overall webpage:

        My personal website: Reference & Research of Sports & Entertainment figures:

        Negro Leagues: Birth/Death Dates of some prominent Negro L. players

        Sports Writers Index: Over 600 sports writers;
        Assessing Ty: Deposing the witnesses. What Ty's peers actually said.

        Baseball Familes:

        All-Star All-Star Teams: 130 Prominent BB Figures give their teams.

        Cobb, Ruth, Wagner Supporters:

        Early Player Profiles:

        Ty Cobb's World Series:
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-20-2008, 06:43 PM.


        • #5
          Hey Bill:

          I'm just about finished with Harold Seymour's book, "Baseball: The Early Years", and I noticed he spells Ed Delahanty's last name Delehanty. Was this a common error back then, and if so, when was the mistake realized?
          "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

          - Alvin Dark


          • #6
            Historical Player Salaries:

            All salaries are express in thousands; all figures under a person's name apply to that person until another name appears. The corresponding year appears at the collumn at the left.
            1898							1,5														
            1899		Lajoie																			
            1900		6,0				Matty	2,1														
            1901		8,0				1,5	4,2														
            1902		8,0				3,0	5	McGraw													
            1903						5,0	5	11													
            1904							5	11													
            1905	Cobb	9,0					5	11	1,8-Bobby Lowe			2,7-S.Crawford									
            1906	1,8		W.Johnson				5	15		6,5-Bobby Wallace		3,0									
            1907	2,4		2,7				5	15													
            1908	4,8		3,5				10	15				4,0									
            1909	4,8		4,5			9	10	18													
            1910	9,0		7,0			9	10	18					Alexander								
            1911	9,0		7,0	M.Brown		9	10	18	Chase				1,5		Wheat						
            1912	9,0		7,0	7,0	Speaker	9	10	18	6			5,0	2,0		3,3						
            1913	12,0		12		9,0	9	10	30			D.Lewis	5,0		Hooper							
            1914	15,0	Ruth	12,5	Collins	18 pkg.	12,0	10	30			5		3,5	5							
            1915	20	3,5	16	15	18 pkg.	Hornsby	10	30	Roush		5	7,5	3,5	5							
            1916	20	3,5	16	15	15	2,0	10	30	5,0		5	7,5	3,5	5	6,0						
            1917	20	5	16	15	15	3,0		40		Huggins		7,5	12,5		6,8						
            1918	20	7	16	15	15	4,0		40		12,5			8,0								
            1919	20	10	16	15	18	4,0		40	10	12,5				9							
            1920	20	20	16			5,0		40			Heilmann			10			Landis				
            1921	35 p/m	30				11		40			7,5			13,75			50,0				
            1922	35 p/m	52				18,5	Gehrig	50		8,8	12.5			13,75			50,0				
            1923	35 p/m	52				18,5	3,5	50		10,0	R.Youngs			13,75	Frisch	Gehringer	50,0				
            1924	38 p/m	52	16-20	15-20	30?	18,5	3,0	50	19,0		16		15-20	10,0	17,5	3,5r	50,0				
            1925	50 p/m	52	20	40 p/m		33,3	3,75	50			16	Foxx		10,0	15,0		50,0				
            1926	50 p/m	52	20		35	33,3	6,5	50			Pennock	2			16,6-Dazzy Vance		50,0				
            1927	105*	70	20	20	35?	37	8,0	50	23,3	37,5	17,5	2,5			16,6		65,0				
            1928	35	70	retired		30?	40,6	25	50	23,3	8,0-O'Doul		3			16,6		65,0				
            1929		70	25-manager			40	25		23,3	8,5		5					65,0				
            1930		80	25-manager			40	25		held out	22,6-H.Wilson	20			Simmons	25,0		65,0				
            1931		80	25-manager			40	25	70	15,0	33	25-Terry	16,6		33,33	22,5		50,0				
            1932		75				40	25	70		16,5	15	16,6		33,33							
            1933		52				15	23	Klein	Cochrane	Hubbell		16,6	B.Rickey	33,33			30				
            1934		36,696				15	23	30	30,0	17,5	27,5	18	39,470	20							
            1935	DiMaggio	35		24		18	31	17,289	30,0			20	44,919			35	             Greenberg		
            1936	7,5		20	24		18,33	31		45		30		43,907	16,5		25					
            1937	15		25			18,33	36			22,5	30		42,340			18,5					
            1938	25	Williams	40			5,0	36														
            1939	27,5	6,5	40			8,0	36														
            1940	32,5	12	55																		
            1941	37,5	20																			
            1942	43,75	35				9,0															
            1943	WWII	military																			
            1944	WWII	military																			
            1945	WWII	military				6,0													              Reiser
            1946	43,75	50		12,5																	
            1947	43,75	75	100																		
            1948	70	90	30-Kiner																		
            1949	100	100		J.Robinson			Stengel												49,470		
            1950	100	100	65	35		18	50														
            1951	100	100				20manager	65														
            1952		100		40		10,36															
            1953		100				20,36															
            1954		100				18															
            1955		100				60															
            1956		100				61															
            1957		100			Musial	62															
            1958		125			100																
            1959		125																			
            1960		90																			
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-06-2007, 06:33 PM.


            • #7
              Originally posted by AstrosFan
              Hey Bill:

              I'm just about finished with Harold Seymour's book, "Baseball: The Early Years", and I noticed he spells Ed Delahanty's last name Delehanty. Was this a common error back then, and if so, when was the mistake realized?
              I don't know. I always seen it spelled with an a. Total Baseball, all the books I've seen have always spelled it that way.



              • #8
                Useful Reference Resources:

                Looking for used Baseball Books? Here are some leads.
       Massive website includes other massive databases., abebooks, amazon, Alibris, viabiblio, bookavenue, countless others.
       go to Ebay, then click onto the icon for in the column on the left, then click onto books,
                Bobby Plapinger P.O. Box 1062, Ashland, OR 97520, 541-488-1220
                Wayne Greene PO Box 479, Cathedral Station, NY, NY 10025 212-662-2104
                Archer's Used & Rare Books 330 North Willow St., Kent, Ohio, 44240-2564 330-346-0926
                Georgetown Bookshop 4710 Bethhesda Ave., Bethesda, MD 20814 301-907-6923 To sell ONLY, call 1-800-225,6150
                Willis Monie Books 139 Main St., Cooperstown, NY 13326 800-322-2995 alternate tel. # 607-547-7128

                Extremely Useful Reference Resources
                1. Social Security Death Index, 1937-present, only really good from 1970 on. It's free online at and
                2. New York Times Obituaries Index; There are 2 volumes, 1851-1969 and 1970-79. These 2 reference books are sometimes hard to acquire. All libraries have them.
                3. Biography and Genealogy Master Index; This is an online index, created by Gale. You can usually access it through a city library. This is one amazing database. Gale company has indexed 12.7 million biographical sketches in more than 3,400 reference books, such as Who's Who, Biographical Dictionaries, Biographical Encyclopedias, etc.
                4. Biography Resource Center, - Similar to above. Access through library.
                5., Has many dozens of useful databases, such as all census' up through 1930.
                6.; In addition to its search engine, which is the best to use, try its Google Answers. They have hired hundreds of independent contractors to personally search for your requests, at any price from $1. to $100. You set the price.
                7. SABR Bulletin's Research Needs, as well as their National Pastime, and Baseball Research Journal
                8. The Sporting News online, available via Paper of Record, for $99./yr.; SABR makes this database available to it's members for $49./yr.
                9. Proquest; Has packaged into one database, NY Times (1851-2001), Washington Post (1877-1988), LA Times (1881-1984), Chicago Tribune (1847-1984), Boston Globe (1872-?), Atlanta Constitution (1868-?) with an excellent & fast search engine.

                SABR has made available to it's members the Proquest Database, for free, as a benefit of membership, which now is $50./yr.

                Various BB Books; some of the most usuful have been:
                Total Baseball; various editors have been: John Thorn, Pete Paler (stats), Michael Gershman, David Pietrusza, Phil Birnbaum Bill Deane; This must be the most important, comprehensive must-have reference book on one's baseball bookshelf. While the 8th ed. was a major disappointment, it still is a must have item. An encyclpedia, full statistical record book, and is chock full of biographical data. 1st. Ed. 1989, published by Warner Books, Hardcover, D/J, over 2,200 pp., ISBN: 0-446-51389-X, 11 x 8.25, priced $49.95.
                1st. ed. Is particularly useful, in that it includes for pitchers: SO/g., BB/g., H/g., and gives home/away breakdowns for 27 famous hitters (pp. 2200-2213); Aaron, Clemente, Cobb, E. Collins, Crawford, DiMaggio, Foxx, Gehrig, Hornsby, R. Jackson, Kaline, Killebrew, Klein, Lajoie, Mantle, Mays, Morgan, Musial, Ott, F. Robinson, Rose, Ruth, Schmidt, Speaker, Wagner, T. Williams, Yastrzemski.

                Baseball: A Comprehensive Bibliography, Compiled by Myron J. Smith, Jr., 1986, published by McFarland. This covers from 1980 - Jan. 31, 1985. HC, Green cloth, 915 pp., ISBN: 0-89950-222-9. All text, 9.25 x 6.25,
                The 1st supplement covers from 1985 - May, 1992.
                The 2nd supplement (Apr.1 1998) covers June, 1992 - Dec., 1997. 310 pp., ISBN: 0-7864-9531-7, all text, 9.25 x 6.25,

                Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia, editors of Total Baseball, 2000; Total Sports Publishing, HB, 1298 pp., ISBN: 1-892129-34-5. 11 x 8.75, originally priced $49.94, 2,000 biographies, from brief to 4.5 pp.

                The Ballplayers, ed. Mike Shatzkin, 1990, Published William Morrow & Co.,Inc, HB, 1,230 pp., ISBN: 0-87795-984-6, 11 x 8.5, original price: $39.95, 6,000 entries, over-whelmingly on people. b/w photos

                New Biographical History of Baseball, Donald Dewey & Nicholas Acocella, 2002, Published Triumph Books, HC, 474 pp., ISBN: 1-57243-470-8, b/w photos, 9.25 x 7.25, originally $28.95. Over 1,500 entries, prominent BB figures, no personal data.

                Who's Who in Professional Baseball, Gene Karst & Martin J. Jones, Jr., 1973, Published Arlington House, HC, 919 pp., ISBN: 0-87000-220-1, no photos, all text, 9.5 x 6.5, originally $12.95. Over 1,500 brief bios, brief peraonnal data.

                The Baseball Necrology, by Bill Lee, 2003, Published McFarland, HC, 517 pp., ISBN: 0-7864-1539-8. All text, 10.5 x 7.25, Post-BB lives & deaths of over 7,600 ML players and other BB figures.

                Baseball's Best: The Hall of Fame Gallery, by Martin Appel (text) and Burt Goldblatt (photos), 1980 updated, Published McGraw-Hill Book Co., HB, 439 pp., INSB:0-07-0021-48-1, b/w photos, originally $24.95. One of the best biographical books ever. Chronological review of each Hall of Famer's career, and brief notes on post-career. Not overblown hero-worship.

                Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train, by Henry W. Thomas, 1995, Phenon Press, HB, D/C, 458 pp., ISBN: 0-9645439-07. b/w photos, 4.25 x 6.25, originally $24.95. One of the most comprehensive and best sports biographies ever written. This bio has everything. It has an acknowledgments, Introduction, Foreword, 3 Appendixs, Notes, Bibliography, Index. Includes all the colorful players of the era. Cobb, Jackson, Ruth, Speaker, Collins, Griffith, Milan, etc. Author is Walter's grandson, who took many years to lovingly and laboriously, using the 30 family scrapbooks, brought this story to fruition. Enriched with delicious period flavor. Works at all levels. Must-have. A book worthy of it's world-class subject.

                My Life in Baseball - the True Record, Ty Cobb with Al Stump, Sept., 1961, Doubleday & Co., HB, 283 pp., INSB: b/w photos, 8.5 x 5.5, Originally $4.50, Ty Cobb gives his side of the many fights/conflicts with which he was involved. Great photos, priceless BB tips, with which one could improve their game. Unapolagetic, tough portrait of a one-of-a-kind performer. Must read by Ty fans.

                Cobb, by Al Stump, 1994, Algonquin Books, HB, 436 pp., ISBN: 0-945575-64-5, b/w photos, 9.25 x 6.25, Originally $24.95. 33 yrs. Earlier Stump had felt, that since Cobb had had a guarantee final say from Doubleday, the book was strictly Cobb's, and had been too self-serving for his taste. This book had all the deleted material Stump had hoped to put in the original. This IS a blood & thunder hell-raiser book. But still it was true to its subject. No white-wash here, as Stump had feared his 1st pass had ended up as. Must-read for Cobb fans as I am. Doesn't stab Cobb in back. But movie based on this book was worthless as garbage. Oozes cool period flavor.

                Ty Cobb, by Charles Comer Alexander, 1984, Oxford University Press, PB, 272 pp., ISBN: 0-19-503414-7, b/w photos, 8 x 5.25, Originaly $7.95. Most neutral, even-handed, impartial, and academicly scholarly, and best researched of all the Cobb books. It took a professor to accomplish it. Began his research Sept., 1980, began writing Lavor day, 1982, and finished writing Feb., 1983. Must-have for Cobb fans. Charts a faultless course by avoiding golly-gee hero-worshiping or anti-Cobb bashing of his "dark side." Totally factual.

                The History of Baseball: It's great players, teams and managers, ed. by Allison Danzig & Joe Reichler, 1959, Published Prentice-Hall, INC., HC, 412, lots b/w photos, 11 x 8, Covered many, various aspects of BB. Quotes by Granny Rice abound.

                The Baseball Story, by Fred Lieb, 1950, Published Van Rees Press, HB, 335 pp., Wonderful, fantastic b/w photos, 8.25 x 5.75, Very excellent exploration of BB's pre -1900 era, as well as all the others.

                Balldom, by George Leonard Moreland, 1914, published Balldom Publishing Co., HB, 304 pp., ISBN: on re-publishing in 1989 by Horton Publishing Co., 0-944786-46-4, all text, 7.5 x 5, originally $1.00. Wonderful early history of baseball.

                Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, by Bill James, 1985,1988, Oct., 2001, Villard Books, PB, 723 pp. in '88 revised, and 998 in his new revised Abstract, ISBN of his revised abstract: 0-684-80697-5. Some b/w photos, not oodles. 9.5 x 7.75, originally $45. Has a few flaws. Bill has a huge personal problem with Ty Cobb, which causes him to under-rate him to only 5th greatest. But despite this, is a must-have book on your shelf. Rates all positions to 100th best, plus top 100 Greatest, in order.

                Unique, One of a Kind Items:
                Baseball's Golden Age: The Photographs of Charles M. Conlon, by Neal McCabe and Constance McCabe, 1993, Published by The Sporting News, HB, 198 pp., INSB: 0-8109-3130-3. Originally $35. Book of the greatest photos ever taken from 1905-43. Series of photos of most of famous players of that day, often of them young, then as vet player. As if taken today. Glorious b/w.

                Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official Major League Baseball Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991,1993, Published Sterling, PB, 278 pp., ISBN: 0-8069-8490-2, 12 x 9, originally $19.95. Color drawing of all ML uniforms of the century. I've spent countless hours of pleasure, going through my BB books, dating photos using the uniforms in this book to guide me. Wonderful, unique addition.

                Who's Who in Major League Baseball, 1933, compiled by editor-in-chief Harold (Speed) Johnson, and Associate Editor Harry Neily, Published Buxton Publishing Co., HC, Red cloth cover, 544 pp., b/w photos, 11.5 x 8.75. This amazing book contains the most amazing, dignified photos of famous players like Wagner, Ruth, plus umpires, manager, coaches, trainers, owners, statisticians, radio announcers, and team officials, and most rareof all, sports writers. It gives wallet photos & brief bios of 95 of the most prominent sports writers, with dates of birth, newspaper chronology of the careers. Extremely rare! Usually priced today from $250-500.

                Baseball Extra: A newpaper history of the glorious game from its beginnings to the present. From the Eric C. Caren Collection, 2000, Published Castle books, HB, 438 pp., ISBN: 0-7858-1188-5. 15 x 11. Originally $29.95. Large coffee table style book. It contains the 1st page sports pages of various of the great newspapers, from 1857-1999.

                Those books which are indispensible for the bookshelf must include:
                Total Baseball,
                Bill James Historical Abstracts,
                Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia,
                Baseball's Best: The Hall of Fame Gallery,
                by Martin Appel (text)

                Other resources which are indispensible must include membership in SABR, and subscriptions to both Proquest and Sporting News, online. SABR's old publications, such as The National Pastime and SABR Research Journal are highly invaluable. Baseball Reference is another website which is an invaluable resource statistically.

                Some Useful Baseball Websites:
                1. Baseball Index
                2. Baseball Reference
                3. Deadball Era (Frank Russo)

                May this help those in need.
                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-20-2008, 06:40 PM.


                • #9
                  My slate of candidates for Best Seasons Ever for a Pitcher:
                  1. Johnson ----- 1913------36-7------11---258---346---54---8.0
                  2. Alexander --- 1915------31-10---- 12---225---376---43---7.0
                  3. Koufax ------ 1965------26-8-------8---160---336---33---4.8
                  4. Gibson -------1968------22-9------13---258---305---36---7.0
                  5. Brown ------- 1906------26-6------10---254---277---35---4.9
                  6. Matty ------- 1909------25-6-------8---223---275---34---5.8
                  7. Joss -------- 1908------24-11------9---206---325---35---5.0
                  8. Wood -------- 1912------34-5------10---178---344---44---6.9
                  9. Coombs ------ 1910------31-9------13---182---353---37---4.2
                  10. McGinnity -- 1904------35-8-------9---169---408---42---4.3
                  I give high precedence to ERA+, in conjuction with W-L, Shutouts, and a variety of other stats. Some of the flashier ERA+ seasons of modern vintage by Maddux/Martinez came with too few inninings pitched to make my cut. Sorry about that. I like to see at least 250 innings pitched or so. I have no hard rules.

                  My award winner, Walter Johnson's 1913 campaign led his league in:
                  Wins, W-L%, shutouts, CG, innings, SO, ERA, ERA+, Total Baseball's RATIO, Opponents BA, Opponents on-base ave., pitching runs+, wins shares, total pitching wins, fewest hits/g, fewest BB/g, SO/g, Total Baseball's starter runs, adjusted starter runs, total pitcher index.

                  In other words, Walter swept the boards that year. And he did it while pitching 346 innings. He also won the MVP award. A true evergreen, classic, vintage Year For the Ages.

                  Greatest Pitching Seasons:

                  I give highest original presumption to ERA+, but do not use only 1 stat. I also look at innings worked, W-L, awards, league leads, etc. This list is in order of sequence according to ERA+.

                  For convenience, I high-lighted in red the post 1920 seasons for us, for easy reference.
                  Pedro Martinez-----2000---285---217---18-6----7----4--.617--29--7.3
                  Greg Maddux--------1995---259---209---19-2---10----3--.609--30--6.2
                  Walter Johnson-----1913---258---346---36-7---11---29--.667--54--8.0
                  Bob Gibson---------1968---258---305---22-9---13---28--.771--36--7.0
                  Mordecai Brown-----1906---253---277---26-6---10---27--.812--35--4.9
                  Dwight Gooden------1985---226---276---24-4----8---16--.791--33--7.0
                  Grover Alexander---1915---224---376---31-10--12---36--.757--43--7.0
                  Christy Mathewson--1909---223---275---25-6----8---26--.735--34--5.8
                  Lefty Grove--------1931---218---289---31-4----4---27--.787--42--6.3
                  Cy Young-----------1901---217---371---33-10---5---38--.768--41--5.7
                  Ron Guidry---------1978---208---273---25-3----9---16--.759--31--5.7
                  Addie Joss---------1908---205---325---24-11---9---29--.741--35--5.0
                  Jack Taylor--------1902---203---324---22-11--10---33--.830--32--5.1
                  Dean Chance--------1964---199---278---20-9---11---15--.825--32--4.6
                  Spud Chandler------1943---197---253---20-4----5---20--.810--29--5.0
                  Hal Newhouser------1945---194---313---25-9----8---29--.864--36--6.6
                  Mort Cooper--------1942---193---279---22-7---10---22--.811--29--5.0
                  Carl Hubbell-------1933---193---309---23-12--10---22--.820--33--5.1
                  Tom Seaver---------1971---193---286---20-10---4---21--.795--32--5.7
                  Randy Johnson------2002---190---260---24-5----8----4--.827--29--6.3
                  Ed Walsh-----------1910---189---369---18-20---7---33--.733--36--5.8
                  Warren Spahn-------1953---187---266---23-7----5---24--.805--31--5.3
                  Lefty Gomez--------1934---185---281---26-5----6---25--.803--31--4.3
                  Luis Tiant---------1968---185---258---21-0----9---19--.779--28--3.6
                  Vida Blue----------1971---183---312---24-8----8---24--.787--30--4.8
                  Jack Coombs--------1910---182---353---31-9---13---35--.886--37--4.2
                  Steve Carlton------1972---182---346---27-10---8---30--.817--40--6.8
                  Rube Waddell-------1905---180---328---26-11---7---27--.882--35--5.7
                  Orvie Overall------1909---179---285---20-11---9---23--.845--30--4.5
                  Joe Wood-----------1912---178---344---34-5---10---35--.816--44--6.9
                  Joe McGinnity------1904---178---408---35-8----9---38--.836--42--4.3
                  Dazzy Vance--------1924---176---309---28-6----3---30--.798--36--6.0
                  Dizzy Dean---------1934---170---324---30-7----3---29--.867--37--5.3
                  Stan Coveleski-----1917---167---298---19-14---9---24--.820--29--2.4
                  Roger Clemens------1986---166---254---24-4----1---10--.762--29--4.9
                  Jack Chesbro-------1904---158---454---41-12---6---48--.854--53--4.6
                  Denny McLain-------1968---157---336---31-6----6---28--.812--33--4.4
                  Sandy Koufax-------1965---156---335---26-8----8---27--.728--33--4.8
                  Dave McNally-------1968---154---273---22-10---5---18--.782--26--3.2
                  Orel Hershiser-----1988---148---267---23-8----8---15--.865--25--3.7
                  Bob Feller---------1946---145---371---26-15--10---36--.887--32--4.7
                  George Uhle--------1926---143---318---27-11---3---32--.934--32--3.9
                  Robin Roberts------1952---141---330---28-7----3---30--.814--32--3.7
                  Urban Shocker------1922---140---348---24-17---2---29--.873--29--3.7
                  Don Newcombe-------1956---130---268---27-7----5---18--.793--27--3.1
                  Nolan Ryan---------1972---120---284---19-16---9---20--.948--24--2.0
                  Whitey Ford--------1961---117---283---25-4----3---11--.882--22--0.9
                  *ratio = Relative Onbase Ave.; Opponent's Onbase Ave / L. onbase ave.
                  WS = Bill James' Win Shares
                  TPR = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Some of the Greatest Hitting Seasons Ever: Listed according to PCA.

                  Ruth, 1920-------2.08----1.47-----1.27---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
                  Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
                  Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
                  Bonds, 2004------1.83----1.76-----1.32---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
                  Bonds, 2001------2.04 ---1.57-----1.27---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
                  Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
                  Bonds, 2002------1.96----1.77-----1.45---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
                  Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
                  Lajoie, 1901-----1.53----1.38-----1.47---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
                  Speaker, 1912----1.44----1.39-----1.54---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
                  Medwick, 1937----1.37----1.24-----1.42---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
                  Cash, 1961-------1.41----1.46-----1.37---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
                  J.Jackson, 1911--1.49----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
                  F.Robinson, 1966-1.28----1.31-----1.68---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
                  H.Duffy, 1894----1.42----1.26-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
                  Delahanty, 1899--1.44----1.33-----1.59---189---16--16.36---41---5.4
                  Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
                  Wagner, 1900-----1.36----1.28-----1.56---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
                  Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.26-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
                  Carew, 1977------1.45----1.35-----1.40---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
                  Vaughan, 1935----1.38----1.48-----1.31---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
                  Kiner, 1951------1.18----1.31-----1.60---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
                  Al Rosen, 1953---1.28----1.23-----1.60---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
                  Burkett, 1901----1.42----1.35-----1.49---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
                  Aaron, 1959------1.36----1.24-----1.59---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
                  Mize, 1937-------1.33----1.24-----1.55---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
                  Terry, 1930------1.32----1.25-----1.38---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
                  Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
                  Zimmerman, 1912--1.36----1.19-----1.54---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
                  Ott, 1929--------1.11----1.22-----1.49---165---02--13.15---31---5.8
                  Averill, 1936----1.30----1.16-----1.48---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
                  Clemente, 1967---1.13----1.24-----1.52---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
                  Brett, 1980------1.44----1.38-----1.66---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
                  Greenberg, 1937--1.19----1.22-----1.60---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
                  Snider, 1954-----1.28----1.20-----1.58---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
                  J.Robinson, 1949-1.30----1.23-----1.35---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
                  Heilmann, 1921---1.34----1.24-----1.51---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
                  Mays, 1954-------1.30----1.22-----1.63---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
                  Rose, 1969-------1.39----1.27-----1.38---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
                  B.Williams, 1970-1.24----1.10-----1.49---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
                  O'Doul, 1929-----1.35----1.30-----1.46---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
                  T.Davis, 1962----1.31----1.13-----1.34---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
                  Crawford, 1911---1.38----1.23-----1.46---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
                  Keeler, 1897-----1.42----1.28-----1.49---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
                  Manush, 1928-----1.34----1.15-----1.44---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
                  Lindstrom, 1930--1.25----1.07-----1.28---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
                  Z.Wheat, 1924----1.32----1.25-----1.40---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
                  Z.Wheat, 1925----1.22----1.13-----1.30---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
                  P.Waner, 1927----1.27----1.22-----1.33---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
                  Gehringer, 1936--1.22----1.15-----1.31---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
                  Reiser, 1941-----1.32----1.18-----1.54---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
                  Colavito, 1961---1.13----1.17-----1.46---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
                  J.Rice, 1978-----1.20----1.08-----1.55---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
                  KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.13----1.15-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
                  Trosky, 1936-----1.14----1.01-----1.46---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
                  Oliva, 1964------1.30----1.10-----1.45---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
                  K.Williams, 1922-1.16----1.13-----1.57---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
                  J.Tobin, 1921----1.20----1.05-----1.19---119---02---8.24---25---0.5
                  Away Games Only, indexed to League Averages.
                  DiMaggio,1937------- 1.71----------1.11------------1.23
                  Cobb,1911----------- 1.67----------1.36------------1.54
                  Babe Herman,1930----no-data-------no-data----------no-data
                  Bonds, 2001---------no data-------no data----------no data
                  name, yr.-----------home HRs-----away HRs------home Slg-----away slg.
                  Ruth, 1920------------29-------------25----------.985----------.736
                  Ruth, 1921------------32-------------27----------.929----------.772
                  Ruth, 1923------------19-------------22----------.805----------.728
                  Gehrig, 1927----------24-------------23----------.722----------.805
                  Hornsby, 1922---------24-------------18----------.741----------.703
                  Sisler, 1920----------15--------------4----------.760----------.503
                  DiMaggio, 1937--------19-------------27----------.631----------.711
                  Klein, 1930-----------26-------------14----------.794----------.578
                  Foxx, 1932------------31-------------27----------.820----------.682
                  Mantle, 1956----------27-------------25----------.746----------.664
                  Cobb, 1911-------------5--------------3----------.640----------.602
                  Williams, 1949--------23-------------20----------.710----------.595
                  Ott, 1929-------------20-------------22----------.575----------.692
                  Musial, 1948----------16-------------23----------.618----------.780
                  The home/away splits were located at Total Baseball, Vol. 1, ed. by John Thorn & Pete Palmer with David Reuther, 1989, pp. 2200-2213.

                  My Candidates for Most Impressive Hitting Peak Ever:
                  1. Barry Bonds - 2001-2004,---------244 OPS+
                  2. Babe Ruth - 1920-1924,-----------221 OPS+
                  3. Ted Williams - 1942-1949,--------209 OPS+
                  4. Rogers Hornsby - 1921-1925,------202 OPS+
                  5. Ty Cobb - 1909-1913,-------------197 OPS+
                  6. Lou Gehrig - 1927-1934,----------193 OPS+
                  7. Mickey Mantle - 1956-1962,-------191 OPS+
                  8. Honus Wagner - 1905-1909,--------187 OPS+
                  9. Stan Musial - 1943-1948,---------174 OPS+
                  Most Impressive Pitcher's Peaks:
                  1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+
                  2. Walter Johnson, 1910-1914,-------204 ERA+
                  3. Roger Clemens, 1986-1992,--------164 ERA+
                  4. Sandy Koufax, 1961-1966,---------161 ERA+
                  5. Ed Walsh, 1907-1912,-------------160 ERA+
                  6. Christy Mathewson, 1903-1909,----155 ERA+
                  7. Grover Alexander, 1911-1917,-----150 ERA+
                  8. Rube Waddell, 1902-1908,---------145 ERA+
                  Bill Burgess
                  Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-11-2007, 01:05 PM.


                  • #10
                    "After 136 pitches, Floyd Bevens, of the Yankees, had the only no-hit ball game ever played in a World Series. But he threw 137 and lost, 3 to 2."

                    This is probably my favorite Red Smith line. He was the first writer I ever saw put a game in terms of pitches thrown, rather than innings played, as is common. I think that's highly creative. It simplifies it to, if Bevens's game had ended after 136, he would be immortalized, but he threw one more pitch, and became just another World Series game loser.

                    Roger Kahn's book, "The Head Game", has a piece on Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn, and his magnificent 1884 season. In discussing Radbourn, Kahn notes that a player observed years later that many of this pitches that would be considered modern then were a part of Radbourn's repertoire decades ago. Other books have documented the wide variety of pitches in a pitcher's arsenal back then.
                    Were the pitches really that varied back then, or were the differences in some of them so slight that we would today create groups of pitches that would each be placed in a single pitch type? Or were the old pitch types just discarded after many of them were found to be useless?
                    If anyone knows the answers, I'd love to hear them.
                    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                    - Alvin Dark


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by
                      Greatest Pitching Seasons:
                      Here's a surprising suggestion Bill

                      How about Babe's 1916 being added, or knocking one of the lesser seasons off that list?

                      *37 win shares (pretty sure that led, with Johnson at 36? I think)

                      * 323 innings (1300 BF)

                      * 9 shutouts (lefty record that stood for a long time)

                      * 1.75 ERA (158+, is higher than the bottom 11 guys on your list)

                      * 6.40 H/9IP (led league by .24)

                      * .199 opp. BA

                      * 23-12 (with Boston's dreadful hitting, no telling how many wins he might have got)

                      * 23 CG

                      * 170 K's (3rd in the league)

                      * 4.73 K/9 IP (T-7th)

                      You mentioned awards.

                      There wasn't a Cy Young back then, but Babe certainly could have won it in '16. In fact, Babe's first ever New York HEADLINE came after the 1916 season, in The Times on December 10: It read simply RUTH LED PITCHERS (in reference to ERA). A week later The Times rated him best in the league, all things considered: "Babe Ruth of Boston carried off the pitching honors of the league." We can say he would have had a very good shot at the Cy Young, all things considered, eh.

                      So there's your award, sorta

                      We can throw in that he made only 3 errors all year while turning 6 double plays (tied for second-the leader had 8), and was tied with Jim Bagby for the league lead in PO (24 - nobody else had more than 19).

                      He beat Johnson twice in 1-0 games that year including the 13 inning affair.

                      Its for the season, so you could throw in his gem of a WS game. Don't need to tell you about it. Setting a record with a fourteen inning CG on the largest stage imaginable. Allowing one run, tying the game with an RBI of his own, and then holding Brooklyn scoreless for the last 13 innings. The most pitches he threw in one inning was sixteen and the fewest eight. In six of the innings he needed only 9 pitches each. He walked three and struck out four and only threw 147 pitches (47 strikes/54 balls). He gave up six hits, twenty-three grounders, twelve flies, and five foul balls.

                      * He was a 21 year old lefty facing mostly right handed batters, and he didn't throw trick pitches.

                      If all this isn't enough to add him to the list, then what can I say. I tried on GHR's behalf Thanks for listening.
                      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 11-22-2006, 06:22 PM.
                      "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                      ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF


                      • #12
                        Certainly that is a fine season, but there are others more deserving. Don't limit yourself to Babe Ruth. I can tell you love the guy, but if you're going to suggest a season to add to Bill's list, look for the best available, not the best Ruth season. Try Dizzy Trout in 1944, or Dolf Luque in 1923. Both are, according to Win Shares, the best seasons of their respective decades.
                        "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                        - Alvin Dark


                        • #13
                          I understand what you're saying. Its titled greatest pitching seasons, and I think when you take everything into account, Babe's one and only possible candidate year (1916) has a very good argument, certainly over some of those already on there (including Nolan's 72). You bring up win shares; Babe's '16 has a higher WS than 37 of those seasons named. He had more innings than 29 of those names on the list, more SHO than 28 names (as a lefty), more wins than 14 names, and a "cy young" award to boot. I think I'm being realistic in bringing up that season, but you're certainly right that there are many other great candidates.
                          Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 06-29-2006, 01:52 PM.
                          "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                          ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF


                          • #14
                            Oh yes, I would agree that Babe's '16 is better than quite a few of those on the list.
                            "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                            - Alvin Dark


                            • #15
                              I remember when Pedro got off to his amazing start in 2000. His ERA was below one, and there was talk of him breaking Bob Gibson's record for lowest ERA.
                              In fact, there was no chance of him breaking Gibson's record. That record is lowest ERA for pitchers with 300+ innings. No pitcher has thrown 300+ since Steve Carlton in 1980. Pedro certainly wasn't going to do it. The record he was going after was Dutch Leonard's, who posted a 0.96 ERA in 224 2/3 IP in 1914.
                              Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, and Randy Johnson have all had better careers than Pedro, but none of them were as dominant at their peak as Pedro was at his. I think we'll all remember how scary good the guy was in his finest seasons.
                              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                              - Alvin Dark


                              Ad Widget