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  • Cubans for the Hall of Fame

    There will be a special election for the HOF this coming week . We are talking Negro Leagues members . As i read , there is a commitee , and from the names on it , it certainly is a good commitee . Lot of names who really know about the NL . And better yet , looks like they did a complete research , which should give this election some very good results .
    This makes me think about all the " thin and light " methods of elections that the BBWA have executed during so many years . The same thing has happened with some other commitees that had cherished the important task .
    If MLB had used this orderly fashion instead , we would have witnessed a more thorough researched and clear elections in the past .
    No doubt that we all will continue to ask ourselves why this guy is in , and why that one is not . But if we can rely on people who can dig deeper , and take their time to measure all that has to be measure then we all could feel a lot better in terms of who is getting in .
    In my mind there are six cuban ball players that deserve to be properly considered for this High Honor . Three of them from the Negro Leagues : José de la Caridad Méndez , Cristóbal Torriente and Alejandro Oms . The other three from the Majors : Orestes Miñoso , Tony Oliva , and Luis Tiant . In researching their careers you will find that they all posess what it takes to major stardom .
    I am not cuban , i just follow the game and their actors .
    All serious comments are welcome .

  • #2
    Yeah, I hope all make the Hall. I have been posting about this in the past.
    Thanks, for the remainder.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm optimistic about Minoso later this month, and I think he's deserving. Mendez may well be deserving, but I've found it hard to get a good fix on him, owing to the problems of pitching and the Negro Leagues. Torriente absolutely belongs. I like Oms, though I'm not sure if he'll make it. Tiant and Oliva were very good players, but I'm not satisfied they had good enough careers to make the HOF if we leave out the clearly mistaken selections.

      Jim Albright
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jalbright
        I'm optimistic about Minoso later this month, and I think he's deserving. Mendez may well be deserving, but I've found it hard to get a good fix on him, owing to the problems of pitching and the Negro Leagues. Torriente absolutely belongs. I like Oms, though I'm not sure if he'll make it. Tiant and Oliva were very good players, but I'm not satisfied they had good enough careers to make the HOF if we leave out the clearly mistaken selections.

        Jim Albright

        Where have you been, Jim?

        It has been a long time since I read any comments from you.


        When do we know who is selected or not?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jalbright
          I'm optimistic about Minoso later this month, and I think he's deserving. Mendez may well be deserving, but I've found it hard to get a good fix on him, owing to the problems of pitching and the Negro Leagues. Torriente absolutely belongs. I like Oms, though I'm not sure if he'll make it. Tiant and Oliva were very good players, but I'm not satisfied they had good enough careers to make the HOF if we leave out the clearly mistaken selections.

          Jim Albright
          Well , lets see what happens with this upcoming election . Sure , Orestes has a good shot even though his major contributions were done in the Bigs , not in the Negro Leagues . With Méndez , i think that the great problem is the era when he was pitching : Too long ago , not many sources to rely on , and the absence of organization on negro games . Anyway , his exploits in Cuba should talk for himself , and the opportunities he had against ML players should be measure , too . Oms is unfortunately a dark horse . He was one of those magnificent persons who would do things very good ( like all around playing ) but with a shut mouth . Looks like that doesn't work in our society .
          Torriente should get in - he was too good , to be missed - .
          With Tiant i am still wondering why he is not in . A lot of times i think that not being american , not being white , growing a big mustach , and to top it , happy for being who he was , hampered his chance with the voters . He was , and is , very proud of being cuban , and behaves just like Clemente did , clear about his circumstances . This doesn't help latinos with some baseball writers who doesn't realize our idiosincracy , or worst yet , who are purely racist and with a false sense of nationalism .
          With Tony , could be happening the same , plus the fact of the smaller cities media against the powerful big cities press . Should has he played in New York , for example , he would be in the Hall many years , now .
          We need only to take a look at those first eight years of Tony ( '64-'71 - 1,179 games , an average 0f 147 games+/season ) , and see how great his performance was . Even when he came back in '73 with that poor knee he was still doing , not great but above average .
          Anyway , we still hope that MLB will one day "organize " themselves .

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cubano100%
            Where have you been, Jim?

            It has been a long time since I read any comments from you.


            When do we know who is selected or not?
            I've been active over in the Hall of Fame section, which is probably my main haunt. Beyond that school, the kid, etc, etc have sort of slowed me down over here. The plan was for the voting to be announced either this coming Sunday or Monday--but the plan included the idea that Robert Peterson would be one of the 12 panelists doing the voting this weekend, and he died within the last 10 days. I haven't heard of any change of plans, but I've got to wonder what they're going to do. Guys who were solely major leaguers, like Tiant and Oliva aren't in this vote. I was a little surprised they put Minoso in there, but I'd read that as a good sign because why contort yourself to make him eligible if you're not seriously considering electing him?

            Jim Albright
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by caribeño
              Well , lets see what happens with this upcoming election . ......
              With Tiant i am still wondering why he is not in . A lot of times i think that not being american , not being white , growing a big mustach , and to top it , happy for being who he was , hampered his chance with the voters . He was , and is , very proud of being cuban , and behaves just like Clemente did , clear about his circumstances . This doesn't help latinos with some baseball writers who doesn't realize our idiosincracy , or worst yet , who are purely racist and with a false sense of nationalism .
              With Tony , could be happening the same , plus the fact of the smaller cities media against the powerful big cities press . Should has he played in New York , for example , he would be in the Hall many years , now .
              We need only to take a look at those first eight years of Tony ( '64-'71 - 1,179 games , an average 0f 147 games+/season ) , and see how great his performance was . Even when he came back in '73 with that poor knee he was still doing , not great but above average .
              Anyway , we still hope that MLB will one day "organize " themselves .
              Remember, Tiant and Oliva aren't in consideration for the vote this month.

              Both Tiant and Oliva have positives, to be sure, but they both have problems also. Maybe some of the gringo attitudes have hurt them, but if there weren't those real blemishes, they'd have gotten in.

              Let's start with Oliva. He was an eight time all-star and is 97th in career MVP shares. He led his league in slugging and runs once each and hits 5 times and doubles four times. That makes him 35th among position players in Black Ink and he was 94th in Gray ink. A guy in the top 100 in MVP voting and 140 in the inks and with those other qualifications certainly is one who deserves consideration.

              Win shares indicate his peak wasn't quite as good as we remember, since he's only 26th among RF in his win share total in his best 3 years and 23rd among RF in his win share total for his best five consecutive. You'd like to see him in the top 20, ideally the top 17, since 140/8 positions equals 17.5. On the other hand, finishing that low in the loaded pool of RF isn't fatal.

              The real killer is the one you alluded to--the knee injury. It limited him to 42nd among RF in career win shares, and 318th overall (200 major leaguers are in the Hall). His HOF standards score (which is based on career totals) is in the same territory, 321st among position players. Most analysts, myself included, don't give anyone a break for illness or death, much less injury. Had Oliva been healthy, I can accept he would likely have had a HOF career. The problem is, there are so many guys the argument can be made for--Ray Chapman, maybe Dickie Thon, maybe Tony Conigliaro, Lord knows how many pitchers whose arms went dead, and many others I'm not able to dredge out of my memory right now. That short career also means that of the ten most similar careers to Oliva's as determined by baseball-reference.com's formula, only the 10th, George Kelly, is in the Hall. For those who aren't familiar with Mr. Kelly, many regard him as the absolute worst HOF selection ever, and more still regard him as an awful choice. Granted, Oliva was better than Kelly, but that short career keeps him from getting career comparisons to legitimate HOFers.

              Tiant also deserves consideration. He's 59th among pitchers in career win shares, when we would usually want about 70 pitchers. He's 49th in career shutouts, and twice led his league in ERA+. He's 65th in HOF standards, which is just good enough because of relievers. These things are all positives.

              His list of 10 most similar pitchers is a mixed bag. Only 3 of the 10 are in the HOF--but the top 2 are. Unfortunately, the top 2 are Catfish Hunter and Jim Bunning--and at least Hunter's selection has drawn a great deal of criticism.

              Then there's the other side--he was only an All-Star 3 times, he's only 128th in Cy Young Award shares--and that award has only existed for about half of baseball history, and he's 161st in Black ink and 164th in Gray ink (Remember, we want him in the top 70). All of those things are weaknesses in terms of a HOF case.

              Jim Albright
              Last edited by jalbright; 02-20-2006, 01:14 PM.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Two Cubans, Torriente and Mendez, out of four were elected into the Hall. A third one, Pompez was born in Key West, Fl of Cuban parents.

                CRISTOBAL ‘CARLOS’ TORRIENTE
                Born: 1895
                Died: 1938

                A big, good natured lefty known as the "Cuban Strongman," Cristobal Torriente was a walking ballclub. He is widely believed to have been the best right fielder in the Negro Laegues, blessed with sure hands, the speed to get under any drive, and a rifle-like arm. He was also an excellent 2nd baseman, amazingly good at 3rd for a southpaw, and a winning pitcher with a record of 15-5. To top it off, Torri was one of the finest hitters in any league.

                Cristobal, a notorious "bad ball" hitter, had control to spray the ball to all fields, but best remembered for his power swing. Playing for the Chicago American Giants, he regularly hit line drives over 400-foot mark on the centerfield wall. Shortstop Bob Williams recalled that when the Giants visited Kansas City, Torri hit a line drive that cracked a clock 17 feet over the centerfield fence and "the hands just started goin' 'round and "round" In 1920, while Cristobal was in Cuba with the Havana Reds, the New York Giants came to town, bringing with them none other than Babe Ruth. In one game, Torrienti homered in his first two at bats, and came up for the third time with two men on base. Ruth, who'd been a top-notch starting pitcher in Boston, trotted in from right field and demanded to pitch to him. Torri promptly stroked a two-run double off Ruth and although Babe then struck out three in a row, he was back in the outfield next inning. Later, Torri slugged his third homer of the game. Back in the U.S., his clutch home run won the deciding game of the 1921 Negro Leagues World Series for the Chicago American Giants.

                In a carreer that spanned 1913 to 1934, Torrienti earned a .339 average against black pitching, .311 against white Major Leaguers, and the respect of everyone who watched him play.

                Source: Stars of the Negro Leagues Trading Cards 2nd Edition Text by Eclipe Enterprises

                http://www.nlbpa.com/torrienti__cristobal.html



                JOSE ‘BLACK DIAMOND’ MENDEZ

                BORN: March 19, 1887, Cárdenas, Matanzas, Cuba
                DIED: October 31, 1928, Havana, Cuba

                Negro League teams played for: Brooklyn Royal Giants (1908), Cuban Stars (1909-12), All Nations (1912-17), Chicago American Giants (1918), Detroit Stars (1919), Kansas City Monarchs (1920-26)

                Positions: Pitcher, Shortstop, Second Baseman, Third Baseman, Outfielder, Manager HEIGHT: 5’8" WEIGHT: 155 lbs.

                José Méndez was perhaps the first Latino baseball legend ever. In his homeland of Cuba, they called him "El Diamante Negro," The Black Diamond.

                Barred from the major leagues because of his dark skin, The Black Diamond nonetheless sparkled in Cuban baseball and the Negro Leagues in the United States. During the first quarter of the 20th century, there was no better pitcher. That was the opinion of many, including the great major league manager John McGraw. It was in Cuba that El Diamante Negro regularly beat the greatest major league pitchers in exhibition games. Sometimes, when Méndez walked into restaurants in Cuba, people stood up and clapped.

                http://www.nlbpa.com/mendez_jose.html



                Alejandro "Alex" Pompez

                Born: May 14, 1890, in Key West, Florida
                Died: March 14, 1974, in New York, N.Y.

                The affable Pompez stood at the forefront of the internationalization of the Negro leagues during his 35 years as an owner and league executive (1916-50). He successfully made the transition to baseball's integrated era by working as a scout and, later, director of international scouting for the New York/San Francisco Giants organization.
                The son of Cuban immigrants, Pompez entered black baseball in 1916 with his Cuban Stars operating as an independent team in the East before participating in the Eastern Colored League (1923-29). His NY Cubans joined the Negro National League in 1935 and he renovated Dyckman Oval, making the Cubans the sole New York-based team with its own stadium in the Negro National League (1935-36).

                An adroit talent evaluator, he signed the black circuit's first Puerto Rican, Dominican, Venezuelan, and Panamanian players, introducing Martin Dihigo, Alejandro Oms, Juan "Tetelo Vargas," and Orestes Miñoso, among others, to baseball fans. Constantly dealing with players jumping to Latin American leagues, the Cubans enjoyed mixed success; they dropped a seven-game series to the Pittsburgh Crawfords for the 1935 NNL pennant and lost a 1941 NNL playoff to the Homestead Grays, before winning the 1947 Negro League World Series over Cleveland.

                Pompez often served as a peacemaker between different Negro leagues factions. In 1924 he helped organize the first Negro World Series and in the late 1920s helped broker peace in the Eastern Colored League before the collapse in 1929. He was elected vice-president of the Negro National League from 1946 to 1948 and was instrumental in bringing the East-West Classic to the East starting in 1946.

                In a bid to maintain its viability, Pompez negotiated for the Cubans to serve as a New York Giants farm team (1948-50). In 1951, the Giants hired him to scout the Caribbean and African American players in the United States. The roster of talent he introduced to the Negro and major leagues included future Hall of Famers Orlando Cepeda, Dihigo, Juan Marichal, and Willie McCovey, along with all-stars Francisco Coimbre, Horacio Martínez, Miñoso, Oms, Tony Taylor, and Felipe Alou.

                He contributed to the legacy of black baseball by signing African American and Latino players who were part of the integration generation and by later serving on the Hall of Fame blue ribbon committee on the Negro leagues from 1971 to 1974.

                http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...ompez_alex.htm



                Surprisingly, Orestes Minoso was not selected despite having enough credentials as a Negro Leaguer and Major leaguer.

                ORESTES ‘MINNIE’ MINOSO:grouchy :grouchy :grouchy

                Bats R, Throws R
                Height 5' 10", Weight 175 lb.
                Major League Debut: April 19, 1949
                Born November 29, 1922 in Havana, Cuba

                Orestes "Minnie" Minoso, a veteran of the Negro Leagues' New York Cubans, where his leadoff spot in the batting order aided the Cubans as they captured the Negro National League pennant and won World Series from the Negro American League's Cleveland Buckeyes. He was the starting third baseman in both the 1947 and 1948 East-West All-Star games before entering the major leagues with the Cleveland Indians in 1949.

                Minoso had a sensational rookie year, batting .326 with 173 hits while leading the league in triples and stolen bases. In a questionable decision, sportswriters gave the Rookie of the Year Award to the Yankees' statistically inferior Gil McDougald. A speedy outfielder, Minoso led the American League in steals three consecutive years. For his career, Minoso batted .298 with 1,962 hits.

                http://www.nlbpa.com/minoso__orestes_-_minnie.html


                Alejandro Oms h

                Played from 1921 through 1935. A colorful player, he entertained fans by catching fly balls behind his back in one-sided games. He batted approximately .325 during his Negro League career. He also played in Venezuela into the 1940s, and was Venezuela's top defensive outfielder in 1943.

                Oms made his greatest impact in his native Cuba, collecting 537 Cuban Winter League hits in 1531 at-bats for a lifetime .351 average. He won batting crowns in 1924-25 (.393), 1928-29 (.432), and 1929-30 (.380). He led the CWL with 76 hits in 1928-29 and with 44 in 1931-32, when his 14 stolen bases were also the league high. He played on championship teams in Santa Clara, Havana, Almendares, and Cienfuegos.

                http://www.nlbpa.com/oms_alejandro.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cuban Baseball

                  Cuba is rich with baseball History.

                  As a Cuban born male, I was taught the love of baseball by my father.

                  Through the years I have learned so much about the roles that Cuban Players had in American Baseball.

                  There is a great website that I recently came across that is filled with information and history of Cuban baseball.

                  http://www.cubanball.com/
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I will leave discussion of the proposed Negro Leaguers mentioned here to those who know something about the subject. I have heard of these players, but have no idea how good they may have been.

                    I certainly support Minoso and Oliva for the HOF, and I am leaning toward Tiant.
                    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      nice topic budYYY!...
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