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  • all time non MLB international team

    I'm going to try something here. What I want is nominees for the best possible set of starters (five pitchers and one closer included) for players who 1) played no more than 20 games in MLB and 2) played no more than 100 games in the US Negro Leagues. Castro-era Cubans are definitely eligible, as are Japanese players, and others from the Caribbean or Mexico who meet these requirements.

    My first effort isn't going to be definitive, but if I'm going to start such a thread, I've got to get the ball rolling:

    catcher--Katsuya Nomura an extremely durable catcher with power. I liken him to Gary Carter.

    First base--Sadaharu Oh Think Willie McCovey with several hundred more walks to his credit and you've got it. An awesome talent, and probably the best of this team.

    Second base--Antonio Pacheco over Silvio Garcia and Shigeru Chiba Chiba is the Japanese candidate and I'm not sure if a righty who hit to right field is good enough to make this team. He could field, and if his hitting style worked, he'd have been a competent leadoff type, though not a serious HOF-caliber talent. Pacheco is the Castro-era Cuban candidate, and he also had a fine fielding reputation. I wish I could peg his hitting skill better, which is why I hesitated to pull the trigger and pick him. Garcia was more a shortstop in the Negro League years, but he loses that spot and could be moved here. He probably would give you a long-term competent bat to go with good glovework. Tough call here, but I'll go with the guy who actually played second I'm most sold on, and that's Pacheco.

    Third base--Shigeo Nagashima versus Omar Linares I like both of these players with broad-based talents. I'd like to have a DH and put the loser in that spot. It's very hard to compare these two, but I don't think you'd be sorry choosing either one. I guess I'll go with Nagashima's superior longevity, and make Linares the DH.

    Shortstop--Perucho Cepeda Father of major leaguer Orlando Cepeda, and said to be an even better player. He may well have been, from the records we do have. The elder Cepeda was a far superior fielder, being able to play good quality shortstop--and he still hit quite well. He's probably in the league of Barry Larkin in quality, which to me is high praise.

    Center field--Victor Mesa versus Yutaka Fukumoto Both men are speedy glove men who could steal a base. Fukumoto had plate discipline to be sure, but so did Mesa. Mesa could well have had more power, which would push me in his direction. I just don't have a good enough feel for Cuban ball in the Castro era to be sure he's the better choice.

    Left field--Isao Harimoto a hitting machine. The only Japanese player to reach 3000 hits there, and, with the longer MLB seasons, I think he would have done it in the majors as well. He had some power to go along with .300 averages and good plate discipline.

    Right field--Koji Yamamoto versus Orestes Kindelan and Lazaro Junco Yamamoto was really a RF, and a good one with many Japanese Gold Gloves to his credit. I don't think he was quite a HOF-caliber talent, but I may be wrong about that. Kindelan and Junco are power hitters from Cuba, and I don't think either of them were defensive standouts. Again, I wish I had a better feel for how Castro-era Cubans compare to make this choice. I think I can eliminate Junco in the comparison to Kindelan, but it still leaves a tough choice between Yamamoto and Kindelan.

    closer--Yutaka Enatsu versus Pedro L. Lazo both of these guys started but had significant time as relievers. Enatsu probably was a HOF caliber talent, and Lazo may well have been as well.

    starter--Masaichi Kaneda The best pitcher in Japanese baseball history, and he deserves a spot here.

    starter--Kazuhisa Inao A superb Japanese pitcher who pitched well for a decade under a crushing load. He helped his team to several championships, but his arm went after a spectacular ten year run. I think that used more sparingly, as he would have in the majors, he would have had an even better career.

    last three starters--Victor Starffin versus Akira Bessho versus Masaaki Koyama versus Braudilio Vinent versus Rogelio Garcia versus Jorge L. Valdes The last three are my picks for the top three Castro-era Cuban starting pitchers, Starffin is a Russian who starred in pre-1945 Japanese ball, Bessho was a Japanese star of the late 40's through the mid to late 50's, and Koyama starred in the 60's in Japan. There's so many issues to sort them all out.

    Honorable mention Diomedes Olivo from the Dominican is a pitcher who intrigues me, but I simply don't know enough about to support here. I would be surprised if I haven't omitted at least a name or two I shouldn't have, but this should provide a start.
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-25-2008, 04:37 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Interesting thread/idea, Jim. I'm more of a modern-era MLB follower and not much of a historian, so I probably won't have much to contribute here.

    I know nothing at all re: Perucho Cepeda, but you might want to at least look at Cuban shortstops German Mesa and Eduardo Paret for the SS slot. I know MLB scouts considered both to be Gold Glove-caliber players and both had long careers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Agente:

      Cepeda had a pretty potent bat, and a good defensive rep. I just don't know how to compare the Castro-era guys to others, given the aluminum bats and the difficulty in assessing the quality of opposition. The two you mention may be good enough, but Cepeda was good enough to be a leader in the early days of the Puerto Rican Winter League in his 30s despite the presence of some top Negro League talent. I'm more sold on Cepeda, so I'll stay with him.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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      • #4
        How strong was that league? Is there a 30-second version of why Cepeda never played MLB, etc.?

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        • #5
          Cepeda was black, which precluded the majors. He had a temper, and was not inclined to hold it back--which could be a lethal failing in the Southern US of the 20's, 30's and 40's. Cepeda felt it was wiser not to go to the States and expose himself to such situations.

          As for the strenght of the league, he was at the top despite competing against the likes of Josh Gibson, Monte Irvin, and so forth. For at least the last three of the four Cepeda dominated in his 30's, there were always at least several top Negro Leaguers to compete against. It was a pretty good league, though probably not the equal of the American Negro Leagues.
          Last edited by jalbright; 05-11-2008, 07:22 PM.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #6
            Great idea, Jim. At 2B, I think Silvio Garcia might not be eligible due to his two seasons in the Negro Leagues plus his time in the minor leagues after integration. That leaves Pacheco vs. Chiba and Pacheco was a much bigger star in his time and league. I'm surprised there aren't any better options in CF than Mesa and Fukumoto; both were great players but neither was ever really the best player in his league. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of anyone better.

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            • #7
              I might also add that Cepeda was good enough to be a starter in that fabulous 1937 Dominican League.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mischa View Post
                Great idea, Jim. At 2B, I think Silvio Garcia might not be eligible due to his two seasons in the Negro Leagues plus his time in the minor leagues after integration. That leaves Pacheco vs. Chiba and Pacheco was a much bigger star in his time and league. I'm surprised there aren't any better options in CF than Mesa and Fukumoto; both were great players but neither was ever really the best player in his league. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of anyone better.
                I'll look at Garcia again. He didn't play too much in the Negro Leagues according to the BBTF guys, but I didn't look at the minors.

                As for CF, we could take Yamamoto and leave a spot for one of the Cubans.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I didn't include the minors in the first paragraph, to avoid eliminating guys like Hector Espino. I guess I should leave it that way, so Garcia is still in the mix. I can buy Pacheco over Chiba without a great deal of trouble, which leaves Pacheco versus Garcia. I think I'd go with the true 2B if it's at all close, which means Pacheco.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mischa View Post
                    . I'm surprised there aren't any better options in CF than Mesa and Fukumoto; both were great players but neither was ever really the best player in his league. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of anyone better.
                    I mentioned Yamamoto as a possibility. But I can't go with Harimoto and the two slugging Cubans, as that would be an awful defensive outfield. Harimoto had some speed, but wasn't well regarded with the glove, and I don't get the impression the Cuban sluggers were better. Can't have all three of them in the outfield, especially not one like that in CF. The pitchers would sensibly enough want to revolt (and maybe vomit, too).
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                      I mentioned Yamamoto as a possibility. But I can't go with Harimoto and the two slugging Cubans, as that would be an awful defensive outfield. Harimoto had some speed, but wasn't well regarded with the glove, and I don't get the impression the Cuban sluggers were better. Can't have all three of them in the outfield, especially not one like that in CF. The pitchers would sensibly enough want to revolt (and maybe vomit, too).
                      Could someone like Koji Akiyama man center field?

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                      • #12
                        Regarding Castro-era Cubans:
                        Did baseball in Cuba improve notably after the revolution?
                        Or did all of the best earlier players try the major leagues?

                        Regarding Aparicio, Avila, and others --major league stars from outside the United States and Cuba. Are they generally regarded as the greatest players their countries have produced? Or simply as heroes because they played well in the major leagues?
                        From another angle, for example:
                        Is there a consensus in Venezuela that several domestic players were greater than Aparicio?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mischa View Post
                          Could someone like Koji Akiyama man center field?
                          He could. I'm not sure he's better than Yamamoto, though. I'll look at that one.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Anybody want to tackle Linares versus Nagashima? That's a tough one in my book.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                              Regarding Castro-era Cubans:
                              Did baseball in Cuba improve notably after the revolution?
                              Or did all of the best earlier players try the major leagues?
                              I'd say it's safe to say that as a number of players, including Tony Perez, took off for the States when Castro came to power that there was a dip for a while. I'd think that after a few years, that dip had been erased. I'd suspect there was some improvement thereafter due to better training, etc, but how much is very open to question.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment

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