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2013 World Baseball Classic

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  • @PLowry
    I like your long post, but why are you soooooooo obsessed with IBAF rankings, as I said before it is NOT ACCURATE at all!!! Columbia is a strong team and they deserve to be at least in the top 20s. They have two MLB short stop, and Julio Teheran(it is said that hes the no.1 pitching prospect) from Columbia. Don't you think its unfair that France is ranked higher than Columbia?

    Comment


    • Thanks for this. Very interesting. As I suspected, only seven MiLB players from Brazil, and only two playing in a full-season league.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Agente Libre View Post
        As I suspected, only seven MiLB players from Brazil,
        No you did not ;-)
        Originally posted by Agente Libre
        I doubt those three countries combined account for more than five or ten MiLB players.
        Brazil allready has 7....

        AND you did not get the point of my post
        Originally posted by Paula59
        Venzuela, D.R., Panama, P.R (for 2011), Nicaragua (2007), Brazil, Guatemala and even Bahamas (2003) all have a lot players in the MLB and MLBI and participated in the past at such tournaments.
        Example
        Venezuela ~60 MLB
        DR ~ 98 MLB
        Panama ~ 6
        PR ~ 26

        leaving out Brazil (7), Guatemala and Bahamas with no MLB players - MILB players numbers I am too tired to have a look for
        are able to compete at different tournaments instead of your listed
        Nicaragua ~ 2
        Colombia ~ 4
        because
        Originally posted by Agente Libre
        often skip events because their best players are in MLB and MiLB from February to October.
        If Venezuela or DR with allready about 60 or 98 MLB players can compete with players availabe how comes that Nicaragua and Colombia with a combined 6 MLB players are not able to compete between February - October by your definition??
        That`s what I am talking about - maybe it has a cause these teams have to qualify too like other teams. Maybe they are not as strong as looks like. For sure more baseball blood runs thru their venes then by players in Germany or South Africa or elsewhere but WBC is about selling hats, spreading BB in the world and open new markets. For you as a fan it is for sure more interesting to see Colombia playing for the 6638202 time against DR but this is not what the point is behind WBC INC and in the interest in Global Baseball.
        The only thing you know is you never know and that you know for sure!

        Comment


        • I tend to dislike teams in Europe(no offense to Paula) because the average people has no interest whatsoever in the game of baseball. Everything is soccer soccer soccer soccer soccer soccer(football) and Im pretty frustrated in this one sport continent. Germany has some potential but rest of the europe, even netherlands, have only few followers. I'm hoping to see more WBC celebration like in Venezuela or other latin and asian countries in the continent of europe too.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO7Zbv2scpE

          This is my opinion and I'm not absolutely sure about this, so don't go harsh on me

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Paula59 View Post
            No you did not ;-) Brazil allready has 7....
            I can't tell if this was a joke or if you're seriously claiming I was wrong. Brazil has two players in a full-season U.S. league and zero players in MLB. Guatemala and the Bahamas also have zero players in MLB. Those three countries couldn't field one decent team if they combined players, let alone tried to compete as three separate teams.

            AND you did not get the point of my post
            Example
            Venezuela ~60 MLB
            DR ~ 98 MLB
            Panama ~ 6
            PR ~ 26

            leaving out Brazil (7), Guatemala and Bahamas with no MLB players - MILB players numbers I am too tired to have a look for
            are able to compete at different tournaments instead of your listed
            Nicaragua ~ 2
            Colombia ~ 4
            because

            If Venezuela or DR with allready about 60 or 98 MLB players can compete with players availabe how comes that Nicaragua and Colombia with a combined 6 MLB players are not able to compete between February - October by your definition??
            I don't understand why these simple points are unclear to you. Countries like the U.S. and D.R. that have a lot of MLB players also tend to have a lot of lower-level players who are still good enough to compete respectably in the summer international events. For example, MLB players never played in the Olympics, but college all-star teams were able to not only compete, but win the gold medal. Meanwhile, smaller countries with more developing baseball programs simply don't have that kind of depth, but that doesn't mean they should be cast aside for purposes of the WBC.

            If I read between the lines of your comments, you seem to be claiming that a country like Germany, which has zero MLB players and only one or two top MiLB prospects, somehow might be a stronger baseball country than places like Nicaragua and Colombia, and that's just absurd. It's one thing to be a big supporter of German baseball, but it's quite another to just toss logic aside.

            but WBC is about selling hats, spreading BB in the world and open new markets. For you as a fan it is for sure more interesting to see Colombia playing for the 6638202 time against DR but this is not what the point is behind WBC INC and in the interest in Global Baseball.
            Says whom? I understand the WBC is a business and that the organizers want to make money and grow baseball internationally, but I was under the impression it was also supposed to be the world's highest-level baseball competition.
            Last edited by Agente Libre; 06-11-2011, 04:08 PM.

            Comment


            • In my opinion, the IBAF rankings are very important because they are unbiased rankings, not because they are perfect rankings. The IBAF has used their ranking system for the past few years, and it includes performance in all of the important world and regional tournaments. Perhaps if we wished to have a more perfect system, we might have one-third of the ranking come from the current IBAF ranking, one-third of the ranking come from the number of MLB and minor league players per 1000 population of the country, and one-third of the ranking come from the number of players playing on local amateur, semi-professional, minor league, and MLB teams per 1000 population of the country. This would not be a perfect system either, though. For example, the USA would move significantly UP from its current #2 IBAF ranking, and Cuba, South Korea, and Japan would move considerably DOWN from their current #1, #3, and #4 IBAF rankings. Subjective concepts such as "stronger baseball country" and "passion of a country's fans" and "baseball is in a country's blood" are not measureable, and therefore cannot be part of an objective rankings system.

              Comment


              • Here is one possible way to look at organizing the March 2013 WBC, in my opinion. Assumptions: The request from both Japan and South Korea to the WBC that they NOT be pooled together until the Last Round is accepted by the WBC, for regional rivalry reasons. The requests from South Korea and Japan to BOTH host a First Round pool, based on their both being in at least the Semi-Finals in both 2006 and 2009, results in the necessity to "twist" geography somewhat, by having Japan host the European pool. The Preliminary Qualifying Round winners are: Taiwan from the Asian Pool; Nicaragua or Panama from the Spanish-Portuguese Speaking Pool; Canada from the English-French Speaking Pool; Spain or Germany from the European/African Pool.

                FIRST ROUND

                ASIAN POOL HOSTED BY SOUTH KOREA

                #3 South Korea
                #5 Taiwan
                #10 Australia
                #15 China

                EUROPEAN POOL HOSTED BY JAPAN

                #4 Japan
                #6 Netherlands
                #12 Italy
                #17 Spain or #19 Germany

                NORTH AMERICAN POOL HOSTED BY MEXICO

                #1 Cuba
                #2 USA
                #8 Canada
                #9 Mexico

                CARIBBEAN POOL HOSTED BY PUERTO RICO OR DOMINICAN

                #7 Venezuela
                #11 Puerto Rico
                #13 Dominican
                #14 Nicaragua or #16 Panama

                SECOND ROUND (WITH GUESSES ON WINNERS)

                POOL ONE HOSTED BY HOUSTON ASTROS AT MINUTE MAID PARK

                WINNER OF ASIAN POOL #3 South Korea
                RUNNERUP OF EUROPEAN POOL #6 Netherlands
                WINNER OF NORTH AMERICAN POOL #1 Cuba
                RUNNERUP OF CARIBBEAN POOL #11 Puerto Rico

                POOL TWO HOSTED BY TEXAS RANGERS AT RANGERS BALLPARK IN ARLINGTON

                WINNER OF EUROPEAN POOL #4 Japan
                RUNNERUP OF ASIAN POOL #5 Taiwan
                WINNER OF CARIBBEAN POOL #7 Venezuela
                RUNNERUP OF NORTH AMERICAN POOL #2 USA

                SEMI-FINAL ROUND HOSTED BY JAPAN OR MIAMI MARLINS OR NEW YORK YANKEES

                WINNER OF POOL ONE #3 South Korea vs. RUNNERUP OF POOL TWO #2 USA
                RUNNERUP OF POOL ONE $4 Japan vs. WINNER OF POOL TWO #1 Cuba

                FINALS

                South Korea or USA

                vs. Japan or Cuba

                Comment


                • Originally posted by PLowry View Post
                  In my opinion, the IBAF rankings are very important because they are unbiased rankings, not because they are perfect rankings.
                  Please give up on IBAF rankings. Even soccer fans don't take FIFA rankings seriously.

                  Originally posted by PLowry View Post
                  ASIAN POOL HOSTED BY SOUTH KOREA
                  It's too cold there. There are no domes.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PLowry View Post
                    In my opinion, the IBAF rankings are very important because they are unbiased rankings, ...
                    An unbiased system based on a flawed premise is just as useless as a biased system.

                    Comment


                    • Those groups are way too un-balanced. Look at the North American Pool and the Carribean Pool, each have three, or three favorites to advance from their pools in 2009. While in the Asian pool it has one team.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by USA101 View Post
                        Those groups are way too un-balanced. Look at the North American Pool and the Carribean Pool, each have three, or three favorites to advance from their pools in 2009. While in the Asian pool it has one team.
                        Yup. The North American pool averages out to a 5, while the others are 8, 10, and 11.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Agente Libre View Post
                          I can't tell if this was a joke or if you're seriously claiming I was wrong.
                          A little bit of this a little bit of that. On the one hand you say those latin teams can´t participate at tournaments because their best players are tight in MLB and MiLB - I am showing you that some teams do have a lot MLB and MiLB players and can participate at those tournments. You are talking the hole time about Colombia as a good example fearing they will not be in the WBC - but I showed you that they do have a low number of players and still do not play at tournaments to gain IBAF points (please do not start talking now how meaningfull this ranking is - somewhere/somehow they have to start a ranking) and then you switch and say Brazil, Guatemala, Bahamas do not have Pro players or not combined 10 - this is not true! But let´s stop talking about this please!

                          Originally posted by Agente Libre View Post
                          If I read between the lines of your comments, you seem to be claiming that a country like Germany, which has zero MLB players and only one or two top MiLB prospects, somehow might be a stronger baseball country than places like Nicaragua and Colombia, and that's just absurd. It's one thing to be a big supporter of German baseball, but it's quite another to just toss logic aside
                          No you are reading this wrong! But I think everybody needs to have the same chance to qualify and if this means a latin death group with leaving 3 strong teams behind it is pretty much the same for a european group (same level 3 will be left behind) BUT you can´t compare latin group to eureopean group or Colombia to Germany. Balanced pools are the key with only the strong survives and then you have the strongest teams from a region playing against each other and you can see who is the best team.....

                          If it go´s by your "highest level" and "only the best mlb players should play" thing - this would leave out Korea and Japan - and I am pretty sure those two teams are the best in the world way infront of all latin countries.... that is the point!
                          Not only Big Papi plays for Boston makes DR the best team in the world, not only the most players are US makes USA the best team in the world!


                          I like the idea with the players percentage - this would leave out a lot of strong teams then! Imagine Luxemburg producing an MLB player they would be ranked No1 ;-)
                          Again meaningfull or not, same roster playing at WBC, BWC, ContinentalC or not - somewhere you have to start to show how powerfull is a nation and this only can work out if you have a look at all levels and not only the top level.

                          Maybe we both can agree that we disagree about meaning of the tournament, developement globaly and everthing else talking about the WBC!
                          Last edited by Paula59; 06-12-2011, 03:33 AM.
                          The only thing you know is you never know and that you know for sure!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paula59 View Post
                            No you are reading this wrong! But I think everybody needs to have the same chance to qualify and if this means a latin death group with leaving 3 strong teams behind it is pretty much the same for a european group (same level 3 will be left behind) BUT you can´t compare latin group to eureopean group or Colombia to Germany. Balanced pools are the key with only the strong survives and then you have the strongest teams from a region playing against each other and you can see who is the best team.....
                            I agree with the part I put in bold, but the only way that can happen is with truly balanced qualifier groups, not groups based only on geography. Again, I don't blame people from Europe for wanting a system that guarantees one or two European teams will be in the 2013 WBC, but that doesn't mean it's fair for the Latin countries.

                            If it go´s by your "highest level" and "only the best mlb players should play" thing - this would leave out Korea and Japan - and I am pretty sure those two teams are the best in the world way infront of all latin countries.... that is the point!
                            I never said anything about counting only MLB and MiLB players. I specifically mentioned the pro and pro-caliber leagues in Japan, Korea, Mexico, and Cuba as counting toward a country's number of pro players.

                            I like the idea with the players percentage - this would leave out a lot of strong teams then! Imagine Luxemburg producing an MLB player they would be ranked No1 ;-)
                            Why would it have to be by percentage? I know Phil likes to use a statistical formula for everything, but sometimes a simple headcount is sufficient. This is one of those times. (And I'm not sure why you like this idea. When you consider Germany has 82,000,000 people but has only one top MiLB prospect, I doubt this formula would put Germany into a 28-team WBC field.)

                            Again meaningfull or not, same roster playing at WBC, BWC, ContinentalC or not - somewhere you have to start to show how powerfull is a nation and this only can work out if you have a look at all levels and not only the top level.
                            And again, please name a country that has no MLB players and few or no MiLB players that somehow has a stronger overall baseball program than a country with three MLB players and 10 MiLB players. I guarantee that you can't name one.

                            Comment


                            • Paula do you really think do you really think Italy is better than the Dominican? Your saying teams can participate and it's their fault for not attending. It is their fault but because Italy participates in more tournaments than the Dominican, they have more points and are ranked higher. The Dominican would beat the Italians 6 times out of 10, and thats if the Italians are playing great baseball. Columbia is a better baseball nation than the Czech, Hong Kong, and France. The rankings mean nothing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by USA101 View Post
                                The Dominican would beat the Italians 6 times out of 10, and thats if the Italians are playing great baseball.
                                I'd say more like 8 out of 10, but I agree with everything else.

                                Comment

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