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  • #46
    Wonder where Didi Gregorious would play? The Netherlands or Curacao? I think most of all the other key position players are from Curacao. My question, any other young players from Curacao making noise in the Minors? Haven't heard of any other impact players like that awesome generation of Shoop, Simmons Profar and others.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

      First of all Welcome to Baseball-Fever. Second, Aruba's and Curacao's own WBC teams would greatly diminish Team Kingdom of the Netherlands' strength; therefore I don't see this happening. Of course, that is only my opinion, which twelve new teams would you invite?
      Thank you, SouthwestAmAZins. As for Curacao and Aruba I figured it be best for the WBC because that would add two new strong teams and would help Netherlands rely more on Netherlands players rather then use players from Curacao and Aruba even though technically both are apart of the Netherlands.

      Personally I would invite: Curacao, Aruba, US Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Haiti, Greece, Ireland, Nigeria, Poland, Guam, Sri Lanka and Honduras.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Beisbol41 View Post
        Wonder where Didi Gregorious would play? The Netherlands or Curacao? I think most of all the other key position players are from Curacao. My question, any other young players from Curacao making noise in the Minors? Haven't heard of any other impact players like that awesome generation of Shoop, Simmons Profar and others.
        I know their is Ozzie Albies who just reached the majors. Others include Raysheandall Michel, Gianfranco Wawoe(top Seattle mariners prospect), Kevin Josephina, Sherten Apostel, Hendrik Clementina.

        A Curacao team could possibly be this.

        C: Hendrik Clementina
        1B: Juremi Profar
        2B: Ozzie Albies
        SS: Andrelton Simmons
        3B: Jurickson Profar
        CF: Roger Bernadina
        RF: Raysheandall Michel
        LF: Wladimir Balentien
        DH: Urwin Juaquin

        Bench:
        2b/3b: Gianfranco Wawoe
        2B: Kevin Josephina
        INF:Sharlon Schoop
        3B: Sherten Apostel
        INF: Darren Seferina
        OF: Ademar Rifaela

        Starters
        1. Jair Jurrjens
        2.Shairon Martis
        Bullpen
        1. Kenley Jansen
        2. Shair Lacrus

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Jak View Post

          Thank you, SouthwestAmAZins. As for Curacao and Aruba I figured it be best for the WBC because that would add two new strong teams and would help Netherlands rely more on Netherlands players rather then use players from Curacao and Aruba even though technically both are apart of the Netherlands.

          Personally I would invite: Curacao, Aruba, US Virgin Islands, Bahamas, Haiti, Greece, Ireland, Nigeria, Poland, Guam, Sri Lanka and Honduras.
          Which 12 new teams do you think the WBC Steering Committee would invite?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

            Which 12 new teams do you think the WBC Steering Committee would invite?
            That's a good question, had to think about that one. It'll most likely be a combination of markets MLB wants to look into expanding, competitiveness and rankings.

            Their most likely to invite one team from Africa and Oceania so Nigeria and Guam I think will get invited. Nigeria being because they are the second most successful team in Africa and Guam because after Australia and New Zealand, they're the third best team in Oceania. Plus Nigeria could have have two major leaguer players, Demi Orimoloye of the Milwaukee Brewers and Louis Okoye from NPB, which could help and Guam could have Trae Santos who played for San Diego Padres minor system and possibly more.

            As for the other ten, I had to think about which teams have a decent chance at being competitive, teams that can possibly have players who play in MLB and MiLB including those who have roots to certain countries(i.e Israel,Greece, Ireland), markets in which MLB is interested in expanding to, and rankings. I know the rankings isn't perfect, but since the steering committee is also made up of people from the WBSC(or so I assume), they will take that into account. Rankings won't fully play into it as Israel was ranked low and New Zealand wasn't even ranked when they participated in 2012.

            So in other words,
            Greece, Ireland, Guam, Nigeria, Argentina, Honduras, Bahamas, Haiti, Hong Kong, Russia, Belgium, Guam and Nigeria.

            Fun fact: Honduras, Haiti, Russia, Nigeria all have at least one current player in MiLB
            Estevan Florial(Haiti), Demi Orimoloye(Nigeria), Russia(Anton Kuznetsov) and Honduras (Mauricio Dubon and Denis Diaz). You could also count Touki Toussaint since his whole family is Haitian and lived their for a few years.I guess PJ Colon of the Mets could count too for Ireland but since he was born in Northern Ireland, I guess not because it's part of Great Britain? I don't know.

            Figured with Greece and Ireland, they will mostly use a combination of Greek and Irish born players and Greek and Irish-American players.
            Bahamas have plenty of current and former minor leaguers and are pushing to play in the WBCQ. Haiti like Greece, will have a combination of Haitians(some have played in MiLB), Haitian-Dominicans and possibly Haitian-American players.

            Argentina and Belgium had a few players in MiLB, ranks top 12 in their regions and are the next best competitive teams after the usual tier 1 teams in their region.
            Russia ,like Belgium, is rank top 12 in their region and are next best competitive teams after the usual Tier 1 teams in their region.
            Hong Kong because they rank behind Pakistan and one Asian invite. Thought of India because of the potential market but then I realized they are not ranked high enough, don't play in enough international competitions and not enough Indian-American players to use though I do hope they get invited.

            Sorry for the long post. I'm a geek for international baseball and WBC.

            Edit: forgot to add one more country so I think the final country will be Curacao only because of the amount of players in MLB, MiLB and overseas. With many players contributing, this team will be competitive and I don't think MLB or the committee will ignore them.
            Last edited by Jak; 09-25-2017, 06:35 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Jak View Post

              That's a good question, had to think about that one. It'll most likely be a combination of markets MLB wants to look into expanding, competitiveness and rankings.

              Their most likely to invite one team from Africa and Oceania so Nigeria and Guam I think will get invited. Nigeria being because they are the second most successful team in Africa and Guam because after Australia and New Zealand, they're the third best team in Oceania. Plus Nigeria could have have two major leaguer players, Demi Orimoloye of the Milwaukee Brewers and Louis Okoye from NPB, which could help and Guam could have Trae Santos who played for San Diego Padres minor system and possibly more.

              As for the other ten, I had to think about which teams have a decent chance at being competitive, teams that can possibly have players who play in MLB and MiLB including those who have roots to certain countries(i.e Israel,Greece, Ireland), markets in which MLB is interested in expanding to, and rankings. I know the rankings isn't perfect, but since the steering committee is also made up of people from the WBSC(or so I assume), they will take that into account. Rankings won't fully play into it as Israel was ranked low and New Zealand wasn't even ranked when they participated in 2012.

              So in other words,
              Greece, Ireland, Guam, Nigeria, Argentina, Honduras, Bahamas, Haiti, Hong Kong, Russia, Belgium, Guam and Nigeria.

              Fun fact: Honduras, Haiti, Russia, Nigeria all have at least one current player in MiLB
              Estevan Florial(Haiti), Demi Orimoloye(Nigeria), Russia(Anton Kuznetsov) and Honduras (Mauricio Dubon and Denis Diaz). You could also count Touki Toussaint since his whole family is Haitian and lived their for a few years.I guess PJ Colon of the Mets could count too for Ireland but since he was born in Northern Ireland, I guess not because it's part of Great Britain? I don't know.

              Figured with Greece and Ireland, they will mostly use a combination of Greek and Irish born players and Greek and Irish-American players.
              Bahamas have plenty of current and former minor leaguers and are pushing to play in the WBCQ. Haiti like Greece, will have a combination of Haitians(some have played in MiLB), Haitian-Dominicans and possibly Haitian-American players.

              Argentina and Belgium had a few players in MiLB, ranks top 12 in their regions and are the next best competitive teams after the usual tier 1 teams in their region.
              Russia ,like Belgium, is rank top 12 in their region and are next best competitive teams after the usual Tier 1 teams in their region.
              Hong Kong because they rank behind Pakistan and one Asian invite. Thought of India because of the potential market but then I realized they are not ranked high enough, don't play in enough international competitions and not enough Indian-American players to use though I do hope they get invited.

              Sorry for the long post. I'm a geek for international baseball and WBC.

              Edit: forgot to add one more country so I think the final country will be Curacao only because of the amount of players in MLB, MiLB and overseas. With many players contributing, this team will be competitive and I don't think MLB or the committee will ignore them.
              I do not philosophically agree with some of those choices and I can live with some them, but I need to voice my opinion on four in particular:

              Haiti: This is a nascent federation that has no infrastructure and at this time, there are many other federations that would make a more suitable invitee. The fact that it borders a baseball power doesn’t mean that the quality of their baseball is any good or even existent. Costa Rica is flanked by Panama & Nicaragua and they haven’t participated in any WBSC sanctioned event in recent memory. The fact that a few players of Haitian descent play in MiLB isn’t enough to give them a WBCQ slot. Chili Davis & Devon White were both born in Jamaica and excelled in MLB, but that does not mean that Jamaica is a baseball factory; they were developed in the U.S. in their youth. Besides, your choices would make Haiti the fifth team from the Americas in this hypothetical expansion and would be regionally unbalanced.

              Nigeria: This federation has not participated in any WBSC event since the African Olympic qualifiers in December 2007. They backed out of the U12 World Cup a few years ago and passed on the 2015 U18 African Championship. The second place team was Uganda, which gave South Africa a run for the gold. Uganda could arguably have more youth players than any other African nation. Unfortunately, Little league tournaments do not count towards their WBSC rankings and at the time neither did the 2015 U18 African Championship. I personally think Uganda will replace South Africa as the regional power within the next decade. The major hurdle is that the Ugandan federation and their Little League organizers have some differences to overcome; at least MLB is involved in Uganda and this could help them earn an invitation to the next WBC expansion.

              Greece: This federation is struggling to keep their status as a recognized sport by Greece’s Sports Ministry. In recent years, they have slipped to Europe’s C tier. Sure, they could be invigorated with a plethora of passport players, but would that be fair to Sweden and Croatia that have remained in the A Tier for the last decade? I am OK with Ireland’s participation even though they are in Europe’s C tier, because their federation is on the way up and has growing local support, but Greece’s federation is dying and their Sport’s Ministry doesn’t seem to care at this time.

              Guam: From a marketing perspective, a Pacific island with a population of 167,358 and far, far away from any Major Cities is an unlikely choice for the WBC Steering Committee to make. International baseball would be better served if a different team were given a chance.

              I am not sorry for the long post and also geek out on International baseball.
              Last edited by SouthwestAmAZins; 09-26-2017, 01:31 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

                I do not philosophically agree with some of those choices and I can live with some them, but I need to voice my opinion on four in particular:

                Haiti: This is a nascent federation that has no infrastructure and at this time, there are many other federations that would make a more suitable invitee. The fact that it borders a baseball power doesn’t mean that the quality of their baseball is any good or even existent. Costa Rica is flanked by Panama & Nicaragua and they haven’t participated in any WBSC sanctioned event in recent memory. The fact that a few players of Haitian descent play in MiLB isn’t enough to give them a WBCQ slot. Chili Davis & Devon White were both born in Jamaica and excelled in MLB, but that does not mean that Jamaica is a baseball factory; they were developed in the U.S. in their youth. Besides, your choices would make Haiti the fifth team from the Americas in this hypothetical expansion and would be regionally unbalanced.

                Nigeria: This federation has not participated in any WBSC event since the African Olympic qualifiers in December 2007. They backed out of the U12 World Cup a few years ago and passed on the 2015 U18 African Championship. The second place team was Uganda, which gave South Africa a run for the gold. Uganda could arguably have more youth players than any other African nation. Unfortunately, Little league tournaments do not count towards their WBSC rankings and at the time neither did the 2015 U18 African Championship. I personally think Uganda will replace South Africa as the regional power within the next decade. The major hurdle is that the Ugandan federation and their Little League organizers have some differences to overcome; at least MLB is involved in Uganda and this could help them earn an invitation to the next WBC expansion.

                Greece: This federation is struggling to keep their status as a recognized sport by Greece’s Sports Ministry. In recent years, they have slipped to Europe’s C tier. Sure, they could be invigorated with a plethora of passport players, but would that be fair to Sweden and Croatia that have remained in the A Tier for the last decade? I am OK with Ireland’s participation even though they are in Europe’s C tier, because their federation is on the way up and has growing local support, but Greece’s federation is dying and their Sport’s Ministry doesn’t seem to care at this time.

                Guam: From a marketing perspective, a Pacific island with a population of 167,358 and far, far away from any Major Cities is an unlikely choice for the WBC Steering Committee to make. International baseball would be better served if a different team were given a chance.

                I am not sorry for the long post and also geek out on International baseball.
                Those are fair arguments for Guam and Nigeria. Though I still think Nigeria would get invited over Uganda not just with players but market considering it has nearly 200 million people compared to Uganda though it's not like either senior team will be competitive should any of them get invited. And I'm just assuming an Oceania and African team will get an invite because they don't want to just invite a whole bunch teams from the Americas and Europe.

                I'm still sticking to Haiti and Greece because I would like to think the committee would rather have some teams that can somewhat stand a chance to compete instead of just getting blown out. But we agree to disagree. Either way any new teams to play in the qualifier is a win for me.

                I do think a change in the qualification set up would benefit everyone also instead of a double elimination. I have some thoughts on that but I'm curious to see what other say if they would change it or not.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Jak View Post

                  Those are fair arguments for Guam and Nigeria. Though I still think Nigeria would get invited over Uganda not just with players but market considering it has nearly 200 million people compared to Uganda though it's not like either senior team will be competitive should any of them get invited. And I'm just assuming an Oceania and African team will get an invite because they don't want to just invite a whole bunch teams from the Americas and Europe.

                  I'm still sticking to Haiti and Greece because I would like to think the committee would rather have some teams that can somewhat stand a chance to compete instead of just getting blown out. But we agree to disagree. Either way any new teams to play in the qualifier is a win for me.

                  I do think a change in the qualification set up would benefit everyone also instead of a double elimination. I have some thoughts on that but I'm curious to see what other say if they would change it or not.
                  The common denominator between the choices I singled out are that they have weak or non-existent federations. The Dominican Republic is helping Haiti get started and Greece may or may not be operational. Nigeria may have more people than Uganda, but once again, they haven’t participated in any events in nearly a decade. If population and underrepresentation is a factor, then Indonesia should be strongly considered with 260 Million in population and experience in hosting & participating in baseball events; both sanctioned and unsanctioned by the WBSC. Nearly half of your choices are from the Americas and I believe the WBC Steering Committee will actually spread their choices a little more than that.

                  The WBSC rankings are very flawed and thankfully not the only factor in the WBC Steering Committee’s decision making. The only thing that the WBSC ranking illustrates is participation in WBSC sanctioned events in the last four years; and that is important when considering new invitees. You cited New Zealand and Israel in a previous post, but they had strong support for their federations’ inclusion. Can the same be said about Haiti or Nigeria? I suspect they won’t be.

                  In conclusion, I am not saying those nations should never be allowed to participate; but I am saying that other, better organized federations are able to field competitive home grown teams right now.

                  Some recommended reading:
                  Last edited by SouthwestAmAZins; 09-26-2017, 05:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Thanks to Jak for providing his choices for our WBC expansion poll.
                    Current WBSC Rank > 21 28 29 31 35 38 34 NR 47 52 51 NR 30 33 39 NR 36 37 42 60 64 40 41 58 61 65 67 NR NR
                    ARG RUS BEL SWE HKG THA CRO UGA INA SRI IRL BAH AUT LTU GUA NGR SVK POL UKR GUM ECU PER GRE CHI IND HON CUW ESA HAI Total
                    SouthwestAmAZins X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    PLowry X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    Nutt X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    island slugger X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    cutchemist42 X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    Rally Monkey X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    Lime X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    gianc006 X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    Jak X X X X X X X X X X X X 12
                    Percentage 100 100 88.9 88.9 77.8 77.8 66.7 66.7 55.6 55.6 44.4 44.4 33.3 33.3 33.3 33.3 22.2 22.2 22.2 22.2 22.2 11.1 11.1 11.1 11.1 11.1 11.1 11.1 11.1

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

                      The common denominator between the choices I singled out are that they have weak or non-existent federations. The Dominican Republic is helping Haiti get started and Greece may or may not be operational. Nigeria may have more people than Uganda, but once again, they haven’t participated in any events in nearly a decade. If population and underrepresentation is a factor, then Indonesia should be strongly considered with 260 Million in population and experience in hosting & participating in baseball events; both sanctioned and unsanctioned by the WBSC. Nearly half of your choices are from the Americas and I believe the WBC Steering Committee will actually spread their choices a little more than that.

                      The WBSC rankings are very flawed and thankfully not the only factor in the WBC Steering Committee’s decision making. The only thing that the WBSC ranking illustrates is participation in WBSC sanctioned events in the last four years; and that is important when considering new invitees. You cited New Zealand and Israel in a previous post, but they had strong support for their federations’ inclusion. Can the same be said about Haiti or Nigeria? I suspect they won’t be.

                      In conclusion, I am not saying those nations should never be allowed to participate; but I am saying that other, better organized federations are able to field competitive home grown teams right now.

                      Some recommended reading:
                      Oh no it's fine. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the qualification set up. Do you like the double elimination set up or would you prefer for it to change?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jak View Post

                        Oh no it's fine. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the qualification set up. Do you like the double elimination set up or would you prefer for it to change?
                        I don't care for the modified double elimination format, because an inexperienced team only gets to play in two games every four years. I believe more games against more teams would be better.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

                          I don't care for the modified double elimination format, because an inexperienced team only gets to play in two games every four years. I believe more games against more teams would be better.
                          So something similar to a round robin format? But instead let's say of playing all three or how ever number of teams you want in the group, they play each other twice so the inexperienced team can have six games played instead of three. How would you change it?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Jak View Post

                            So something similar to a round robin format? But instead let's say of playing all three or how ever number of teams you want in the group, they play each other twice so the inexperienced team can have six games played instead of three. How would you change it?
                            A single round robin format works for nearly any amount of teams. A double round robin would be great, but organizers may not want the extra expense. I would go with a single round robin format for a group no larger than eight teams.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by SouthwestAmAZins View Post

                              A single round robin format works for nearly any amount of teams. A double round robin would be great, but organizers may not want the extra expense. I would go with a single round robin format for a group no larger than eight teams.
                              Ah I see, that's what I was thinking though with a slight change.

                              Let's just say for the sake of the argument, WBC commission decides not to expand the tournament but want to expand qualifiers, how about making the qualifiers more like the actual WBC tournament.

                              Group 1: Team A Team B Team C Team D
                              Group 2: Team A Team B Team C Team D

                              Top 2 Teams from each group make it to a final stage or championship round, however you want to call it. Have two semi-final games.
                              Semi-final 1: Group 1 Team A vs Group 2 Team B
                              Semi-final 2: Group 1 Team B vs Group 2 Team A
                              then a final

                              So for example:
                              Pool A: Mexico(Host)
                              Group 1: Mexico Spain Argentina Croatia
                              Group 2: Panama Aruba Russia Austria

                              Championship Round:
                              Semi-Final 1: Mexico vs Aruba
                              Semi-Final 2: Panama vs Spain
                              Final: Panama vs Mexico

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jak View Post

                                Ah I see, that's what I was thinking though with a slight change.

                                Let's just say for the sake of the argument, WBC commission decides not to expand the tournament but want to expand qualifiers, how about making the qualifiers more like the actual WBC tournament.

                                Group 1: Team A Team B Team C Team D
                                Group 2: Team A Team B Team C Team D

                                Top 2 Teams from each group make it to a final stage or championship round, however you want to call it. Have two semi-final games.
                                Semi-final 1: Group 1 Team A vs Group 2 Team B
                                Semi-final 2: Group 1 Team B vs Group 2 Team A
                                then a final

                                So for example:
                                Pool A: Mexico(Host)
                                Group 1: Mexico Spain Argentina Croatia
                                Group 2: Panama Aruba Russia Austria

                                Championship Round:
                                Semi-Final 1: Mexico vs Aruba
                                Semi-Final 2: Panama vs Spain
                                Final: Panama vs Mexico
                                The WBC Expansion poll was always meant for the Qualifiers. Your format really works for me, but I what if there were more games with the same urgency; that is why the modified double elimination exists in the first place. I wouldn’t mind seeing them using a single round robin in a first round that determine seeding for a modified double elimination second round. More games for us, same urgency for the WBCSC and more opportunities to build rivalries.
                                For example:
                                Winnipeg Qualifier: 1st round schedule
                                Game 1 Game 2 Game 3
                                Canada Vs New Zealand Vs Great Britain Vs South Africa
                                South Africa Vs Great Britain Vs New Zealand Vs Canada
                                Great Britain Vs South Africa Vs Canada Vs New Zealand
                                New Zealand Vs Canada Vs South Africa Vs Great Britain
                                Assuming that the 1st round standings are:
                                W L
                                Canada 3 0
                                South Africa 2 1
                                New Zealand 1 2
                                Great Britain 0 3
                                Winnipeg Qualifier: 2nd round schedule would look like

                                Game 1: New Zealand vs South Africa
                                Game 2: Great Britain vs Canada
                                Game 3: Game 1 Loser vs Game 2 Loser
                                Game 4: Game 1 Winner vs Game 2 Winner
                                Game 5: Game 3 Winner vs Game 4 Loser
                                Game 6: Game 5 Winner vs Game 4 Winner

                                Minimum games played: 5
                                Maximum Games played: 7
                                Total Games played: 12

                                On the other hand, this would be too over done for a qualifier.

                                Comment

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