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Worst Award Winners (CYA/MVP) According to Advanced Metrics?

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  • Worst Award Winners (CYA/MVP) According to Advanced Metrics?

    Which players do advanced stats indicate are the worst selections for Cy Young/MVP over the years? The two examples I can think of right off the bat (HA HA) are Marty Marion and Juan Gonzalez.

  • #2
    The 1990 American Cy Young Award was beyond ridiculous. Bob Welsh over Roger Clemens?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pedrosrotatorcuff View Post
      Which players do advanced stats indicate are the worst selections for Cy Young/MVP over the years? The two examples I can think of right off the bat (HA HA) are Marty Marion and Juan Gonzalez.
      In the running...
      2006 AL MVP Justin Morneau
      1998 AL MVP Juan Gonzalez
      1996 AL MVP Juan Gonzalez
      1995 AL MVP Mo Vaughn
      1992 AL MVP Dennis Eckersley
      1987 NL MVP Andre Dawson
      1974 AL MVP Jeff Burroughs
      1974 NL MVP Steve Garvey
      1944 NL MVP Marty Marion

      1992 AL CY Dennis Eckersley
      1990 AL CY Bob Welch
      1987 NL CY Steve Bedrosian
      1984 NL CY Rick Sutcliffe
      1982 AL CY Pete Vukovich
      1959 CY Early Wynn
      1958 CY Bob Turley
      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
      http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

        In the running...
        2006 AL MVP Justin Morneau
        1998 AL MVP Juan Gonzalez
        1996 AL MVP Juan Gonzalez
        1995 AL MVP Mo Vaughn
        1992 AL MVP Dennis Eckersley
        1987 NL MVP Andre Dawson
        1974 AL MVP Jeff Burroughs
        1974 NL MVP Steve Garvey
        1944 NL MVP Marty Marion

        1992 AL CY Dennis Eckersley
        1990 AL CY Bob Welch
        1987 NL CY Steve Bedrosian
        1984 NL CY Rick Sutcliffe
        1982 AL CY Pete Vukovich
        1959 CY Early Wynn
        1958 CY Bob Turley
        If these are so bad, perhaps you should tell us who was so better, just curious
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

          If these are so bad, perhaps you should tell us who was so better, just curious
          1974 NL MVP Steve Garvey

          These 5 guys would all have been much better choices than Garvey.

          Mike Schmidt
          Joe Morgan
          Phil Nielkro
          Johnny Bench
          Jim Wynn

          .


          19th Century League Champion
          1900s League Champion
          1910s League Champion

          1930s League Division Winner
          1950s League Champion
          1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
          1960s League Division Winner
          1970s League Champion
          1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
          1980s League Champion
          All Time Greats League Champion

          Comment


          • #6
            I've been complaining about this for 30 years, but it still irks me that George Bell won the 1987 MVP over Alan Trammell. Bell won for being an RBI guy. But here's his stats over the last 7 games of the season, when the Jays went 0-7 and lost the pennant by one game. AVG/OBP/SLG over 30 PA:

            .111/.200/.111

            Three singles, one RBI, two walks and a HBP in a week.

            Here's Trammell over 33 PA:

            .321/.424/.455 This includes 5 BB, 3 2B and 1 HR.

            So you give the MVP to a klutzy leftfielder who collapses during the heat of a brilliant pennant race, over a first-rate shortstop who beats him in BA, OBP, R, WAR, OPS+ and just about everything else in the world except for HR and RBI's. The shortstop stays hot during the last week and helps his team win the pennant. The leftfielder also hits into two double plays during this week...

            But he's an RBI guy!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gee Walker View Post
              I've been complaining about this for 30 years, but it still irks me that George Bell won the 1987 MVP over Alan Trammell. Bell won for being an RBI guy. But here's his stats over the last 7 games of the season, when the Jays went 0-7 and lost the pennant by one game. AVG/OBP/SLG over 30 PA:

              .111/.200/.111

              Three singles, one RBI, two walks and a HBP in a week.

              Here's Trammell over 33 PA:

              .321/.424/.455 This includes 5 BB, 3 2B and 1 HR.

              So you give the MVP to a klutzy leftfielder who collapses during the heat of a brilliant pennant race, over a first-rate shortstop who beats him in BA, OBP, R, WAR, OPS+ and just about everything else in the world except for HR and RBI's. The shortstop stays hot during the last week and helps his team win the pennant. The leftfielder also hits into two double plays during this week...

              But he's an RBI guy!
              Yes, I was pissed about this too. I know one of the MVP voters and he claimed that Bell deserved it because he got tons of big hits.

              .


              19th Century League Champion
              1900s League Champion
              1910s League Champion

              1930s League Division Winner
              1950s League Champion
              1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
              1960s League Division Winner
              1970s League Champion
              1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
              1980s League Champion
              All Time Greats League Champion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                1974 NL MVP Steve Garvey

                These 5 guys would all have been much better choices than Garvey.

                Mike Schmidt
                Joe Morgan
                Phil Nielkro
                Johnny Bench
                Jim Wynn
                Concepcion, Matlack, and Capra are all also better in SOM for sure that year. 74 was the first season that I ever had. I played a ton of draft leagues.
                This week's Giant

                #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                  Concepcion, Matlack, and Capra are all also better in SOM for sure that year. 74 was the first season that I ever had. I played a ton of draft leagues.
                  Concepcion must have gotten the positional adjustment :-)
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                    74 was the first season that I ever had.
                    I had 10 teams from 1971 and then had the full 1973 season.
                    .


                    19th Century League Champion
                    1900s League Champion
                    1910s League Champion

                    1930s League Division Winner
                    1950s League Champion
                    1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                    1960s League Division Winner
                    1970s League Champion
                    1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                    1980s League Champion
                    All Time Greats League Champion

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                      Concepcion must have gotten the positional adjustment :-)
                      he was a 1

                      .281 14 hrs

                      He was worse on the back card with 30 errors.
                      Last edited by JR Hart; 12-06-2017, 02:55 PM.
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gee Walker View Post
                        I've been complaining about this for 30 years, but it still irks me that George Bell won the 1987 MVP over Alan Trammell. Bell won for being an RBI guy. But here's his stats over the last 7 games of the season, when the Jays went 0-7 and lost the pennant by one game. AVG/OBP/SLG over 30 PA:

                        .111/.200/.111

                        Three singles, one RBI, two walks and a HBP in a week.

                        Here's Trammell over 33 PA:

                        .321/.424/.455 This includes 5 BB, 3 2B and 1 HR.

                        So you give the MVP to a klutzy leftfielder who collapses during the heat of a brilliant pennant race, over a first-rate shortstop who beats him in BA, OBP, R, WAR, OPS+ and just about everything else in the world except for HR and RBI's. The shortstop stays hot during the last week and helps his team win the pennant. The leftfielder also hits into two double plays during this week...

                        But he's an RBI guy!
                        This one irked me, too. Trammell had a career year and led the Tigers to the AL East title and 99 wins. Trammell did get 12 first place votes to Bell's 16.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I always hated 1995 Mo Vaughan over Albert Belle.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                            If these are so bad, perhaps you should tell us who was so better, just curious
                            Apologies for delay...

                            After review, Stan Musial is an overwhelming choice for the '44 season, but it is a weak year for top performances, depending on your evaluation of Marion's defense and support in helping the Cardinals to the pennant, he could be in a discussion for best season outside of Musial, and probably Swish.

                            MVP candidates:
                            2006 - Johan Santana, Grady Sizemore, Joe Mauer, Roy Halladay, Derek Jeter
                            1998 - Roger Clemens, Albert Belle, Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, Pedro Martinez
                            1996 - Alex Rodriguez, Albert Belle, Pat Hentgen, Roger Clemens, Jim Thome
                            1995 - Randy Johnson, Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez, Tim Salmon, Mike Mussina
                            1992 - Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Shane Mack, Edgar Martinez, Kevin Appier
                            1987 - Tony Gwynn, Eric Davis, Orel Hershiser, Dale Murphy, Darryl Strawberry
                            1974 - Gaylord Perry, Rod Carew, Bobby Grich, Reggie Jackson, Fergie Jenkins
                            1974 - Mike Schmidt, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Phil Niekro, Jimmy Wynn
                            1944 - Stan Musial, Bill Nicholson, Johnny Hopp, Augie Galan, Frank McCormick
                            Last edited by Jar of Flies; 12-08-2017, 02:45 PM.
                            Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                            http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                              Apologies for delay...

                              After review, Stan Musial is an overwhelming choice for the '44 season, but it is a weak year for top performances, depending on your evaluation of Marion's defense and support in helping the Cardinals to the pennant, he could be in a discussion for best season outside of Musial, and probably Swish.

                              MVP candidates:
                              2006 - Johan Santana, Grady Sizemore, Joe Mauer, Roy Halladay, Derek Jeter
                              1998 - Roger Clemens, Albert Belle, Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey, Pedro Martinez
                              1996 - Alex Rodriguez, Albert Belle, Pat Hentgen, Roger Clemens, Jim Thome
                              1995 - Randy Johnson, Albert Belle, Edgar Martinez, Tim Salmon, Mike Mussina
                              1992 - Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Shane Mack, Edgar Martinez, Kevin Appier
                              1987 - Tony Gwynn, Eric Davis, Orel Hershiser, Dale Murphy, Darryl Strawberry
                              1974 - Gaylord Perry, Rod Carew, Bobby Grich, Reggie Jackson, Fergie Jenkins
                              1974 - Mike Schmidt, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Phil Niekro, Jimmy Wynn
                              1944 - Stan Musial, Bill Nicholson, Johnny Hopp, Augie Galan, Frank McCormick
                              One thimng is for sure, Albert Belle got ripped off a lot!!
                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                              Comment

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