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How Did They Get The Kid So Wrong?

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  • How Did They Get The Kid So Wrong?

    This is something we "modern" fans have been aware of for quite some time, but I've been reading The Kid and it's made me wonder how the sports writers and experts during Ted's career got his value so wrong?

    During his career we split the atom, came up with the polio vaccine, put men in space, but they couldn't figure out how important walks/on base % was?

    You're on base. You're not making outs. You're leading the league in scoring, the whole point. Ted got endless crap for his approach. I've always wondered how they missed that.

    Williams was a savant. Good for him for sticking to his beliefs. He knew what he was talking about.

  • #2
    I'm not an expert on Ted but I've always felt the criticisms had a lot more to do with Williams' surly personality than his playing style. If he were more likable the criticisms would have been few and far between.
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

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    • #3
      Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
      I'm not an expert on Ted but I've always felt the criticisms had a lot more to do with Williams' surly personality than his playing style. If he were more likable the criticisms would have been few and far between.
      It was a little bit of both, at times his attitude in particular to the press.
      And also what I believe the other member was saying, some could not understand how he could take pitches an inch or two off the plate, hittable with men on base.
      I don't take a stand either way but some thought in certain game situations with men on, he do could damage by taking a swing.
      I do know he always brought up his conversation with one of the greatest RH Rogers Hornsby. "Get a good pitch to hit".

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
        This is something we "modern" fans have been aware of for quite some time, but I've been reading The Kid and it's made me wonder how the sports writers and experts during Ted's career got his value so wrong?

        During his career we split the atom, came up with the polio vaccine, put men in space, but they couldn't figure out how important walks/on base % was?

        You're on base. You're not making outs. You're leading the league in scoring, the whole point. Ted got endless crap for his approach. I've always wondered how they missed that.

        Williams was a savant. Good for him for sticking to his beliefs. He knew what he was talking about.
        The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw knew the importance of getting on base.
        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-21-2021, 07:46 AM.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

          The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw know the importance of getting on base.
          I'm sure you preceded me by at least a decade with this insight; however, just food for thought. Along with his .466 career OBP, there was this:

          As Manager of NY Giants, Team OBP Rank Among 8 NL Teams, By Year:

          1903: 4th
          1904: 1st
          1905: 1st
          1906: 1st
          1907: 1st
          1908: 1st
          1909: 1st
          1910: 1st
          1911: 1st
          1912: 1st
          1913: 1st
          1914: 1st
          1915: 2nd
          1916: 3rd
          1917: 1st
          1918: 4th
          1919: 2nd
          1920: 3rd
          1921: 1st
          1922: 1st
          1923: 1st
          1924: 1st
          1925: 7th
          1926: 4th
          1927: 2nd
          1928: 2nd
          1929: 4th
          1930: 3rd
          1931: 3rd

          Team Finishes with McGraw as Manager (32 years):

          -Pennants: 10
          -Runner Up Finishes: 11
          -Second Division Finishes (5th-8th in the league): 7
          -Last Place Finishes: 1

          Consider Connie Mack managed for 20 MORE years (53) than McGraw. And yet.

          -Pennants: 9
          -Runner Ups: 7
          -Second Division Finishes: 30
          -Last Place Finishes: 17

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          • #6
            Good observations giys!!

            I doubt McGraw got the same heat Williams did. He seemed highly respected. If I remember Babe Ruth suffered some of these "you walk too much" barbs, but not at the level of Williams.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post

              I'm sure you preceded me by at least a decade with this insight; however, just food for thought. Along with his .466 career OBP, there was this:

              As Manager of NY Giants, Team OBP Rank Among 8 NL Teams, By Year:

              1903: 4th
              1904: 1st
              1905: 1st
              1906: 1st
              1907: 1st
              1908: 1st
              1909: 1st
              1910: 1st
              1911: 1st
              1912: 1st
              1913: 1st
              1914: 1st
              1915: 2nd
              1916: 3rd
              1917: 1st
              1918: 4th
              1919: 2nd
              1920: 3rd
              1921: 1st
              1922: 1st
              1923: 1st
              1924: 1st
              1925: 7th
              1926: 4th
              1927: 2nd
              1928: 2nd
              1929: 4th
              1930: 3rd
              1931: 3rd

              Team Finishes with McGraw as Manager (32 years):

              -Pennants: 10
              -Runner Up Finishes: 11
              -Second Division Finishes (5th-8th in the league): 7
              -Last Place Finishes: 1

              Consider Connie Mack managed for 20 MORE years (53) than McGraw. And yet.

              -Pennants: 9
              -Runner Ups: 7
              -Second Division Finishes: 30
              -Last Place Finishes: 17
              Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
                Art Fletcher but agree, and the Giants traded Frisch at age 28, almost half his career value was ahead of him.
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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                • #9
                  to add to the original response to this I think it falls into the same category as writers complaining about Mantle seemingly not driving a lot of guys in. Some people just want to tear others down. And if your soap box is high enough it can stick.
                  "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                  -Bill James

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Big part was probably never winning a title. In the end fans mostly care about winning the WS and if you fail to do that your star player will get blamed, that is just the way it is.

                    Happened to Arod too before 2009 and also a bit to bonds with the giants.
                    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                      Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
                      I chronicled every transaction McGraw made in the deadball era in this thread. McGraw made clandestine attempts to get power hitting corner outfield types for the entire deadball era. If I remember correctly Delahanty was going to rendezvous with McGraw or one of his associates to attempt to join the Giants when he died.
                      Last edited by bluesky5; 07-05-2021, 11:42 AM.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                        The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw knew the importance of getting on base.
                        You've written variations of this before. Just because the idea wasn't unknown and was held by some of the most insightful people in the game at one time does not mean that it was widely accepted then.

                        3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                          Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
                          Bluesky5 has been chronicling every trade and acquisition McGraw ever made. I found his posts for you:

                          https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...22#post3543822

                          https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...71#post3543971

                          https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...32#post3618832

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