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How Did They Get The Kid So Wrong?

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  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

    Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
    Bluesky5 has been chronicling every trade and acquisition McGraw ever made. I found his posts for you:

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...22#post3543822

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...71#post3543971

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...32#post3618832

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

    The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw knew the importance of getting on base.
    You've written variations of this before. Just because the idea wasn't unknown and was held by some of the most insightful people in the game at one time does not mean that it was widely accepted then.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

    Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
    I chronicled every transaction McGraw made in the deadball era in this thread. McGraw made clandestine attempts to get power hitting corner outfield types for the entire deadball era. If I remember correctly Delahanty was going to rendezvous with McGraw or one of his associates to attempt to join the Giants when he died.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 07-05-2021, 11:42 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    Big part was probably never winning a title. In the end fans mostly care about winning the WS and if you fail to do that your star player will get blamed, that is just the way it is.

    Happened to Arod too before 2009 and also a bit to bonds with the giants.

    Leave a comment:


  • sturg1dj
    replied
    to add to the original response to this I think it falls into the same category as writers complaining about Mantle seemingly not driving a lot of guys in. Some people just want to tear others down. And if your soap box is high enough it can stick.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

    Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?
    Art Fletcher but agree, and the Giants traded Frisch at age 28, almost half his career value was ahead of him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli View Post

    I'm sure you preceded me by at least a decade with this insight; however, just food for thought. Along with his .466 career OBP, there was this:

    As Manager of NY Giants, Team OBP Rank Among 8 NL Teams, By Year:

    1903: 4th
    1904: 1st
    1905: 1st
    1906: 1st
    1907: 1st
    1908: 1st
    1909: 1st
    1910: 1st
    1911: 1st
    1912: 1st
    1913: 1st
    1914: 1st
    1915: 2nd
    1916: 3rd
    1917: 1st
    1918: 4th
    1919: 2nd
    1920: 3rd
    1921: 1st
    1922: 1st
    1923: 1st
    1924: 1st
    1925: 7th
    1926: 4th
    1927: 2nd
    1928: 2nd
    1929: 4th
    1930: 3rd
    1931: 3rd

    Team Finishes with McGraw as Manager (32 years):

    -Pennants: 10
    -Runner Up Finishes: 11
    -Second Division Finishes (5th-8th in the league): 7
    -Last Place Finishes: 1

    Consider Connie Mack managed for 20 MORE years (53) than McGraw. And yet.

    -Pennants: 9
    -Runner Ups: 7
    -Second Division Finishes: 30
    -Last Place Finishes: 17
    Thanks for posting the team walks. I was too lazy to do that. Haha. I haven't read much about McGraw but I suspect he looked for certain types of hitters to sign. What's interesting about Mcgaw's teams is how rarely he had an all time great position player. He never had a Ty Cobb, or a Tris speaker, or a Joe Jackson type outfielder until Mel Ott showed up at the end of McGraw's managerial career. McGraw's best position player he signed and developed are probably Mel Ott, Frankie Frisch, and Bill Terry, Larry Doyle. Anyone else I am missing?

    Leave a comment:


  • scottmitchell74
    replied
    Good observations giys!!

    I doubt McGraw got the same heat Williams did. He seemed highly respected. If I remember Babe Ruth suffered some of these "you walk too much" barbs, but not at the level of Williams.

    Leave a comment:


  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

    The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw know the importance of getting on base.
    I'm sure you preceded me by at least a decade with this insight; however, just food for thought. Along with his .466 career OBP, there was this:

    As Manager of NY Giants, Team OBP Rank Among 8 NL Teams, By Year:

    1903: 4th
    1904: 1st
    1905: 1st
    1906: 1st
    1907: 1st
    1908: 1st
    1909: 1st
    1910: 1st
    1911: 1st
    1912: 1st
    1913: 1st
    1914: 1st
    1915: 2nd
    1916: 3rd
    1917: 1st
    1918: 4th
    1919: 2nd
    1920: 3rd
    1921: 1st
    1922: 1st
    1923: 1st
    1924: 1st
    1925: 7th
    1926: 4th
    1927: 2nd
    1928: 2nd
    1929: 4th
    1930: 3rd
    1931: 3rd

    Team Finishes with McGraw as Manager (32 years):

    -Pennants: 10
    -Runner Up Finishes: 11
    -Second Division Finishes (5th-8th in the league): 7
    -Last Place Finishes: 1

    Consider Connie Mack managed for 20 MORE years (53) than McGraw. And yet.

    -Pennants: 9
    -Runner Ups: 7
    -Second Division Finishes: 30
    -Last Place Finishes: 17

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
    This is something we "modern" fans have been aware of for quite some time, but I've been reading The Kid and it's made me wonder how the sports writers and experts during Ted's career got his value so wrong?

    During his career we split the atom, came up with the polio vaccine, put men in space, but they couldn't figure out how important walks/on base % was?

    You're on base. You're not making outs. You're leading the league in scoring, the whole point. Ted got endless crap for his approach. I've always wondered how they missed that.

    Williams was a savant. Good for him for sticking to his beliefs. He knew what he was talking about.
    The knowledge of the value of walks and OBP preceded Williams by decades. John McGraw knew the importance of getting on base.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-21-2021, 07:46 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    I'm not an expert on Ted but I've always felt the criticisms had a lot more to do with Williams' surly personality than his playing style. If he were more likable the criticisms would have been few and far between.
    It was a little bit of both, at times his attitude in particular to the press.
    And also what I believe the other member was saying, some could not understand how he could take pitches an inch or two off the plate, hittable with men on base.
    I don't take a stand either way but some thought in certain game situations with men on, he do could damage by taking a swing.
    I do know he always brought up his conversation with one of the greatest RH Rogers Hornsby. "Get a good pitch to hit".

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    I'm not an expert on Ted but I've always felt the criticisms had a lot more to do with Williams' surly personality than his playing style. If he were more likable the criticisms would have been few and far between.

    Leave a comment:


  • scottmitchell74
    started a topic How Did They Get The Kid So Wrong?

    How Did They Get The Kid So Wrong?

    This is something we "modern" fans have been aware of for quite some time, but I've been reading The Kid and it's made me wonder how the sports writers and experts during Ted's career got his value so wrong?

    During his career we split the atom, came up with the polio vaccine, put men in space, but they couldn't figure out how important walks/on base % was?

    You're on base. You're not making outs. You're leading the league in scoring, the whole point. Ted got endless crap for his approach. I've always wondered how they missed that.

    Williams was a savant. Good for him for sticking to his beliefs. He knew what he was talking about.

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