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Baseball Reference Has Gone Officially Woke/Virtue Signaling Foolish

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  • Baseball Reference Has Gone Officially Woke/Virtue Signaling Foolish

    I count myself among the people who love the history, lore, characters and accomplishments of the Negro Leagues.

    But mixing the stats is just...frustrating. There's just no way this should ever have happened. It's pure wokeism, and that kind of pandering, virtue-signalling bs is for the benefit of? People who don't even care about sports! Those of us who care already know and can put things in their proper context.

    Grrr!

    One glaring example: Barry Bonds, with a Thanos-like snap of the fingers, is 6th in single season slugging! Gibson's #1 spot is with 186 PAs!

    This is utter folly.
    Starts
    06-16-2021
    Ends
    06-16-2021
    Last edited by scottmitchell74; 06-16-2021, 05:01 PM.

  • #2
    HAS WOKE CULTURE GONE MAD!!

    I mean Major League baseball officially designated the Negro Leagues a major league back in December, and baseball-reference is just taking the statistics that they have and incorporating them as they would with any major league. And until MLB changes the rules when it comes to leaders, then the same rules will apply to these groups, including for slugging having PA's equal to or greater than team games * 3.1.


    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

    -Bill James

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm glad to see I'm not the only one incredibly frustrated by this development. Mingling incomplete, poorly kept records with well documented, painstakingly researched ones just makes everything incoherent.

      If they absolutely had to combine Negro League records with MLB records, they should've at least waited until they were something approaching complete and consistent, and if that wasn't possible, leave them as they were in a separate category. But as should be obvious from the past year, cooler heads no longer prevail. So now we have some players whose stats in exhibition games are counted and others whose exhibition stats aren't, and single-season leaders whose game totals were much lower than a modern-day MLB season.

      I think people are going to have to view Negro League stats the same way we view 19th Century stats: Interesting, but in some ways an apples-to-oranges comparison with MLB stats from the early 20th Century onward.
      Baseball Junk Drawer

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
        I'm glad to see I'm not the only one incredibly frustrated by this development. Mingling incomplete, poorly kept records with well documented, painstakingly researched ones just makes everything incoherent.

        If they absolutely had to combine Negro League records with MLB records, they should've at least waited until they were something approaching complete and consistent, and if that wasn't possible, leave them as they were in a separate category. But as should be obvious from the past year, cooler heads no longer prevail. So now we have some players whose stats in exhibition games are counted and others whose exhibition stats aren't, and single-season leaders whose game totals were much lower than a modern-day MLB season.

        I think people are going to have to view Negro League stats the same way we view 19th Century stats: Interesting, but in some ways an apples-to-oranges comparison with MLB stats from the early 20th Century onward.
        I actually would agree with this, but the precedence with the 19th century stats (and even early 20th century stats) is that they will go with the incomplete data. I cannot be the only one that has an old baseball encyclopedia from the 70's that includes a lot of missing information from the 30's and prior.

        Also, I have had a similar debate with people on this site where I took your same view on 19th century stats, and it can get heated. So I think in the end you cannot please everyone, and instead of being a slave to numbers we should all just learn to actually use context.
        "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

        -Bill James

        Comment


        • #5
          If anyone wants to read Baseball Reference's own announcement rather than rhetorical hyperventilation: https://www.baseball-reference.com/n...-leagues.shtml
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
            If anyone wants to read Baseball Reference's own announcement rather than rhetorical hyperventilation: https://www.baseball-reference.com/n...-leagues.shtml
            I've read it, multiple times. It's full of pandering nonsense. The situation necessitating the very existence of the Negro Leagues is frustrating, shameful, and at times simply sad. There's also incredible glory, joy, pride and accomplishment. But, pretending it's a major league can't change the injustice of the past.

            If the MLB prior to 1947 is watered down, how much more so the Negro Leagues, often fielding nearly as many or more teams scattered around the country with a fraction of the population pool? This action by the MLB and other baseball entities is offensive pandering.

            I love learning about, studying, wondering about...everything... associated with the Negro Leagues. I'm a fan. But those stats suddenly being magically granted MLB status is absurd.

            If the fact that 186 Plate Appearances is now enough to qualify as the all time single season leader in slugging % is rhetorical hyperventilation, then yes count me in that group.
            Last edited by scottmitchell74; 06-16-2021, 04:39 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              If the MLB prior to 1947 is watered down, how much more so the Negro Leagues, often fielding nearly as many or more teams scattered around the country with a fraction of the population pool? This action by the MLB and other baseball entities is offensive pandering.

              In 1939 between the NNL and the NAL there were 14 teams. At the time the US black population was about 9.8%.

              At the same time the US non-Hispanic white population was about 88.9% to feed 16 teams.

              The math is simple. The Negro League outliers had way, way more watered down competition. It's irrefutable math.

              Adding to this, many of the Negro League rate-stat records were set during WWII, further watering down an already watered down league.

              In one amazing snap of the fingers, suddenly 16 of the top 24 single season batting records belong to the Negro Leagues. Farcical!
              Last edited by scottmitchell74; 06-17-2021, 05:24 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Negro Leagues should obviously be considered major league and the short seasons should obviously be accounted for. I don’t think there is much of an LQ issue, personally. There are black people all over and they were willing to travel to play ball because it was a relatively easy way to make a good living. Although I wouldn’t say the NeL’s were the quality of the A.L. and N.L. I think the NeL teams would roundly beat the best AAA teams - P.C.L. and the sort.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  The Negro Leagues should obviously be considered major league and the short seasons should obviously be accounted for. I don’t think there is much of an LQ issue, personally. There are black people all over and they were willing to travel to play ball because it was a relatively easy way to make a good living. Although I wouldn’t say the NeL’s were the quality of the A.L. and N.L. I think the NeL teams would roundly beat the best AAA teams - P.C.L. and the sort.
                  You used obviously twice where I don't see the math supporting such a position.

                  116 million baseball crazed white people feeding 16 teams.

                  12 million baseball crazed black people to feed 12-14 teams.

                  It's not even close.

                  I'm suspicious of the motives of people who keep pushing a narrative so obviously not supported by the math and facts.

                  As a father I've had to teach my girls to ignore this kind of insidious wretched pandering because this is the very BS that will weaken them and give them a false sense of accomplishment and entitlement. It's utter garbage, it's infuriating, and it's made its way into baseball now. Grr!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post

                    You used obviously twice where I don't see the math supporting such a position.

                    116 million baseball crazed white people feeding 16 teams.

                    12 million baseball crazed black people to feed 12-14 teams.

                    It's not even close.

                    I'm suspicious of the motives of people who keep pushing a narrative so obviously not supported by the math and facts.

                    As a father I've had to teach my girls to ignore this kind of insidious wretched pandering because this is the very BS that will weaken them and give them a false sense of accomplishment and entitlement. It's utter garbage, it's infuriating, and it's made its way into baseball now. Grr!!!
                    So we are clear, do you feel the same way about the American Association, Union Association, Players League, and the Federal League? All of those stats count. Am I missing your posts where you complain about how baseball-reference including those leagues in the record books?

                    Also, your last paragraph is hilarious.

                    But seriously, maybe wait until this site updates https://www.mlb.com/stats/batting-av...ll-time-totals before having a panic attack over numbers.
                    "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                    -Bill James

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post

                      If the fact that 186 Plate Appearances is now enough to qualify as the all time single season leader in slugging % is rhetorical hyperventilation, then yes count me in that group.
                      Also, two more things:

                      1. the rule is 3.1 plate appearances per team game. That is the math set by Major League Baseball, so don't complain that baseball-reference is using the actual rules set in place by MLB

                      2. as far as I know, MLB hasn't made a ruling or updated the all-time records. So right now you are just whining about lists on a non-affiliated website sorting in a way you don't like.
                      "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

                      -Bill James

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post

                        So we are clear, do you feel the same way about the American Association, Union Association, Players League, and the Federal League? All of those stats count. Am I missing your posts where you complain about how baseball-reference including those leagues in the record books?

                        Also, your last paragraph is hilarious.

                        But seriously, maybe wait until this site updates https://www.mlb.com/stats/batting-av...ll-time-totals before having a panic attack over numbers.
                        That paragraph is my experience with my daughters. Don't know how that's hilarious. This is the time when I tell you what you can do with your comment...without saying it...hopefully you get my drift.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Why don't you answer the man's question about the AA, UA and Federal League, et. al.?
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                            I mean Major League baseball officially designated the Negro Leagues a major league back in December, and baseball-reference is just taking the statistics that they have and incorporating them as they would with any major league.
                            But why does BBRef (and others) treat the National Association as major when MLB has officially decided it isn't?

                            And until MLB changes the rules when it comes to leaders, then the same rules will apply to these groups, including for slugging having PA's equal to or greater than team games * 3.1.
                            But the 3.1 PA per game rule started with the 1957 season. Should the Negro Leagues leaders be computed by the general rules in place at the time? Also, did the Negro Leagues have their own rule book that sheds any light on determining league leaders in percentage categories?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Union Association is an obvious mistake. Federal League put together a commendable effort but isn’t major league caliber. I think most of us agree N.A., N.L., A.A., P.L. and honestly I don’t even know what Negro Leagues were declared major. I’m assuming the first and second Negro National Leagues, the Eastern Colored League and Negro American League?

                              The Negro League teams also had minor leagues from which to pull talent. By 1860 every club of note had youth teams serving as feeder clubs from which to pick talent. Jim Creighton was brought up to Excelsior from the Star Club, Paul Hines was brought to the majors from an Olympic youth club in D.C. The big difference was that the youth club was always living in the same city as the top club. The pre-Negro League black clubs did the same thing. Minor leagues are an idea old as time.

                              I’ll tell you one thing any team Home Run Johnson was on was major league. Home Run Johnson should be declared a one man Negro League. Not even joking. I’m a huge Ben Taylor guy too.

                              Originally posted by scottmitchell74 View Post
                              You used obviously twice where I don't see the math supporting such a position.

                              116 million baseball crazed white people feeding 16 teams.

                              12 million baseball crazed black people to feed 12-14 teams.

                              It's not even close.

                              I'm suspicious of the motives of people who keep pushing a narrative so obviously not supported by the math and facts
                              Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
                              So we are clear, do you feel the same way about the American Association, Union Association, Players League, and the Federal League? All of those stats count. Am I missing your posts where you complain about how baseball-reference including those leagues in the record books?
                              I’m saying it’s obvious the Negro Leagues should be major league. To segue to sturg1dj’s point I’m saying it’s obvious to take the short season into account just like with Levi Meyerle or Lip Pike. I’m not in favor of discounting any stats from the 19th c. It was the major leagues. The Cubs and Braves were there. It’s the first professional sports league. Why not own it if you’re MLB?
                              Last edited by bluesky5; 06-18-2021, 05:41 PM.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment

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