Baseball Fielders Ranked by Fielding

[EveningStar]

Do these folks know what they're talking about?

Randolph E. Schmid
AP
February 16, 2008

...Based on his time with the Texas Rangers, Alex Rodriguez is one of the game's best shortstops, according to researchers led by Shane T. Jensen of the University of Pennsylvania. Rodriguez now plays third base for the New York Yankees.

Using a complex statistical method, researchers concluded that one of the worst at shortstop is A-Rod's teammate, three-time Gold Glove-winner Derek Jeter. The findings were presented Saturday at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science...

Full article

[bhss89]

After reading the article, which didn't do much more than drop names, I'd say they're out of their mind. For as long as I can remember, sabrmetricians have tried to find a credible way to statistically measure a fielder's prowess; IMHO, I don't think they have, or ever will, find a way to do so. Fielding % is of course one stat to mention, but in regard to determining range, reliability, etc., I don't think that is something that can be measured. Good defense is based on positioning, which is often determined from the dugout, desire, "hustle", weather, etc., etc., etc.
The biggest problem I see in guys trying to measure defensive ability is that far too few of them have ever sprinted into the gap to try to stab a deep flyball, blocked a rocket one-hopper with their chest, or dived for a ball deep in the hole between 2B and 3B. It's easy to sit back and say Jeter is no good if you've know reference point as to what he's attempting to do . . . day in and day out . . . for 155 or so games per summer.

Just my two cents . . .

[Tango Tiger]

Shane has an excellent system. We discussed it at length on my blog.

There are several excellent fielding systems out there:

http://www.tangotiger.net/wiki/index.php?title=Evaluating_Fielding

[bhss89]

Tom, I would say there are several fielding systems out there, a few of which are very good. The point of my post is that rating fielders versus anyone other than themselves is a slippery slope to climb. I should have explained myself more thoroughly. Personally, I look at many of the SABR-created "new school" stats are very helpful as a HS coach. The defensive systems, however, will never replace positioning and "playing the odds" IMHO. I am but a simple HS coach however, so perhaps I'm living in the past and need to catch up!

[Tango Tiger]

One is the evaluation of talent and the other is the strategy of positioning. One doesn't preclude the other, necessarily.

[bhss89]

One is the evaluation of talent and the other is the strategy of positioning. One doesn't preclude the other, necessarily.

You posted what I meant!
I am planning on reading your book, and I hope to be able to discuss it online when I have finished. I heard a college coach speak recently on playing "moneyball" at the HS level - very interesting stuff. I am wondering if you've ever been asked to apply your ideas to HS/youth baseball?

[Tango Tiger]

Nope, no one's asked at that level.

So far, I just know that some MLB teams have used or are using The Book in some capacity or other. Even Ned Yost was caught with it, according to an article last year.

[brett]

I some fielder questions I've run into. One is that Winfield rates as a below average corner outfielder in FRAA by BBPro. Do you think that is accurate?

second is that Ron Cey rates as one of the best fielding third basemen in history-better than Schmidt or Brooks for his top 5-6 years. What do people think of that?

[Tango Tiger]

You should ONLY look at fielding systems based on play by play data.

Anything else comes with a much larger size of uncertainty level.

[bhss89]

Okay, so I'm asking . . . how do you feel The Book: Playing the Percentages in Baseball applies to HS baseball, given that most coaches are working with lineups that have 5-6 kids (at best) who may play beyond HS?
As I mentioned earlier, I am already a big proponent of "moneyball" tactics as they apply to HS ball; just stating that because it may give you an idea of where I'm coming from on this topic.
Also, I guess I should be posting this after I've read your book - I'll work on doing so ASAP.

[digglahhh]

The biggest problem I see in guys trying to measure defensive ability is that far too few of them have ever sprinted into the gap to try to stab a deep flyball, blocked a rocket one-hopper with their chest, or dived for a ball deep in the hole between 2B and 3B. It's easy to sit back and say Jeter is no good if you've know reference point as to what he's attempting to do . . . day in and day out . . . for 155 or so games per summer.

Just my two cents . . .

Does that mean that political/economic analysts can't be critical of the budget if they've never been in the position to have to draw up a budget for the wealthiest nation on Earth?

I don't need to have played pro or semi-pro ball to watch Jeter and notice how lacking his glove side range is. Whether we can precisely measure performance in a numerical fashion is a separate question.

Jeter's a sacred cow in the world of mainstream sports industry. Sabermetricians are seen as fringe, sometimes rogue researchers, mostly because what they do is largely misunderstood. When an institution that is not embraced by the mainstream reaches conclusions that attack mainstream deities, that's only going to reinforce mainstream skepticism.

Of course, that's entirely backward logic. However, the reality is it is unfortunate that sabermetric analysis doesn't justify the hype about Jeter's defense because it serves as another excuse to turn people off to the field. Again, totally backward, but it is a real dynamic, one of many uphill battles the SABR community has to fight.

[bhss89]

First of all, my reference to Jeter was not an attempt to praise his ability to defend at the SS position; on the contrary, I'm in the boat with you in regard to his "sacred cow" status as I feel he is overrated (and over-valued). I wouldn't compare him to the wealthiest man around as I don't feel he's close to the best currently playing in MLB. As you well know, there are several all-stars who, when they're examined "sabrmetrically", don't seem to shine so bright - most serious fans understand this to be true. Jeter may come close to the top of this group, IMHO.
Also, please understand that I have a great deal of respect for sabrmetricians; I agree that they're a largely misunderstood group that could certainly benefit "mainstream" baseball if the populace would only listen for a minute or two. As you may have learned from my earlier post, I do try to employ "sabrmetric-type" decision-making into my HS coaching philosophy; IOW, I will always lean toward what the percentanges/averages would have me do as opposed to following a "gut feeling".