Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ted Williams vs. Left-handed Pitchers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    There's a natural platoon split...even good hitters have that problem...more importantly, good pitchers on their best days have .100 and .200 BAA...seriously...you really think this goofy non-data matters?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by SABR Matt
      csh...that's not evidence. Not evidence at ALL. What's the league BA against lefties throwing CGs? .230? And who the hell cares anyway?

      Is that an estimate or factual numbers. Even if factual it's really not a good comparison, the whole league and how they do compared to a great hitter and how he did. Does anyone have some numbers on any other the better hitters, say any top ten or fifteen career batting average LH hitters with any splits. That is splits on their batting average against RH and LH pitchers.

      I haven't given it much thought but I will say I'm a bit surprised at Ted's gap in batting against LH and RH pitching. I'll hold my thoughts on this until I can find or see some of the same comparison of some of the other greats, RH and LH hitters against pitching from both sides.

      Maybe when I see more comparisons, other hitters, Ted's split numbers will not look that out of the ordinary.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
        Maybe when I see more comparisons, other hitters, Ted's split numbers will not look that out of the ordinary.
        That's all fine and dandy Joe, but these "other hitters" never wanted people to say "There goes the greatest hitter who ever lived." This is friekin' Teddy Ballgame we're talkin' about. We should hold him to a higher standard. If those splits hold true, that's a huge chink in his armour as second greatest hitter ever in my book. Then again, if he did that poorly against lefties and still put up the career numbers he did, then that's pretty impressive. I can kinda see both sides to the argument. Holding off judgement until more info is available.

        Comment


        • #34
          I;ve said it before but we really have no way of knowing that he did that poorly against lefties. The limited data we have shows a pretty good to great hitter against lefties before 1957 and that doesn't include the data from the 40's. His power is down against lefties but his AVG and OBP were very good, and when I say his power was down I mean compared to his power against righties.

          Comment


          • #35
            Joe, Sultan et al...you might as well try to build a case against Ted Williams using split data against lefties pitching on Tuesday night games on the road while it was raining and the pitcher was wearing a red jock strap. GET REAL. You obviously have an agenda inmind to discredit Ted Williams and are grasping at straws.

            Comment


            • #36
              Just picking some lefties at random:

              Steve Carlton in wins: .201 opposing BA, compared to .240 career.
              Glavine: .216/.256
              RJ: .188/.217
              Zito: .200/.232

              That's a 15%-20% difference

              If I looked only at CG, I'm sure the gap would be even wider. Maybe a 30% difference? So, if Teddy was a .230 or whatever he was, hitter against Lefties in a CG, that's probably a .300 hitter overall against lefties.

              This sample and the estimate off the sample, is still pretty tiny.

              As is the end-of-career splits.

              His career average is .344. I wouldn't be surprised if that breaks down as .360 against RHP and .296 against LHP. Or if it was .350 against RHP and .326 against LHP.

              I fail to see what it matters. He could have been .460 against RHP and .000 against LHP, and he'd still be just as valuable as if he went .344/.344. (In-game reliever strategies notwithstanding.)

              This reminds me of the silliness surrounding how much better Vladimir could be as a hitter if he would quit hacking at those outside pitches. It's very possible that Vladimir is hitting optimally, and any change in approach, however logical it looks to us, will simply make him less effective.
              Author of THE BOOK -- Playing The Percentages In Baseball

              Comment


              • #37
                Dave Smith provided some data for Ted, unfortunately it is mostly data from the 50's.

                Code:
                Category   AB    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI   BB  SO   BA  OBA   SA
                Total    4005 1339 261 27 259  895 1048 383 .334 .473 .607
                vs left   928  276  58  3  33  174  193 127 .297 .422 .473
                vs right 3077 1063 203 24 226  721  855 256 .345 .488 .647
                
                Career   7706 2654 525 71 521 1839 2019 709 .344 .482 .634
                Using that data and looking at pre-1957 years (since we know what he did in 1957 and after) we have this line against lefties:
                .319/.440/.519.

                I had to guess on the OBP a bit since they didn't provide HBP and SF. Of course that doesn't include Ted's best years in the 40's so in all probability his line would probably be even higher then that.

                Ted in 1957 hit lefties fairly well. His OPS against lefties would have placed him third overall in the league that year. His batting average third as well, his OBP second and his SLG 4th. Yet people want to say he didn't hit well against lefties that year.

                In 1958 he did not hit lefties well

                In 1959 he was injured and didn't really hit anybody well. Righties and lefties.

                In 1960 he again didn't hit lefties well

                So Ted from the age of 39 to age 41 didn't hit lefties all that well that isn't really damning him and his entire career.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Stan had a similar batting average but his OPS for his career is over 100 points when hitting against lefties. His age 39+ seasons are way down as well from his career norms against lefties.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    George Brett for his career had a 140 point difference, and his old age lefty stats are not pretty. Whereas in his younger days he actually had better stats against lefties at times.


                    Basically what I am trying to say is that it is almost impossible to make the claim that Ted Williams is this or that based on a small amount of at bats when he was very old and oft injured.

                    I've said it before but I am willing to bet that before Ted's 1958 season his line against lefties is somewhere around .325/.450/.550. That isn't bad that is great, especially for a left handed hitter facing left hand pitchers.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SABR Matt
                      Joe, Sultan et al...you might as well try to build a case against Ted Williams using split data against lefties pitching on Tuesday night games on the road while it was raining and the pitcher was wearing a red jock strap. GET REAL. You obviously have an agenda inmind to discredit Ted Williams and are grasping at straws.
                      I don't get it Matt, no bias, no agenda on my part.
                      I was not selective in posting certain years with some numbers, Ted's batting average against LH pitchers that pitched complete games, 1939 to 1960. Thats the young Ted and the older Ted. If you look you will notice that I made the point in bold letters that it was a small sample, that was post #626.

                      I would think that the writer pointing out it was a small sample would be taken by the readers that they should not to put too much into the numbers.

                      In post #652 I did say that I would like to see some splits on other great hitters, LH and RH hitters and see how they did with some splits facing pitchers LH and RH and than I might conclude that Ted's split numbers might not be out of the ordinary.

                      Just not enough numbers on Ted or others at this time. But I will stand by what I also said, I am a bit surprised at what the small sample showed. Again no real conclusion from my end, not until I see some real numbers.
                      Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-23-2007, 12:58 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It's not only a small sample, it's a biased-sample. If you look at all Redsox in those CG, they'd all look bad. If you look at all Yankees in CG, theyd also look bad. That's the point.
                        Author of THE BOOK -- Playing The Percentages In Baseball

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tango Tiger
                          It's not only a small sample, it's a biased-sample. If you look at all Redsox in those CG, they'd all look bad. If you look at all Yankees in CG, theyd also look bad. That's the point.
                          Agreed Tango but those are the only LH/RH pitching splits I could find, complete games pitched against the Bosox. I have already given that some thought, if the games were complete it's obvious in most cases the pitcher was on that day. Even if the Bosox looked bad when a complete game was thrown against them were talking about Ted Williams, not just another average or even above average hitter,

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Thanks for providing sanity Tango. Oy. The misuse of split data of all types is my biggest frustration with current baseball thinkers. It's a well known fact that most left handed batters have an increasing lefty/righty split differential as they age into their late thirties. It has to do with losing reaction time because the swing slows down.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by SABR Matt
                              Thanks for providing sanity Tango. Oy. The misuse of split data of all types is my biggest frustration with current baseball thinkers. It's a well known fact that most left handed batters have an increasing lefty/righty split differential as they age into their late thirties. It has to do with losing reaction time because the swing slows down.

                              Who is talking about a player in his late 30's. I am completely ignoring Ted's split numbers in his late 30's, I know he was human, just like many others, he slowed down.

                              First, I am not here to say or try to prove that Ted Williams had a real flaw a weakness at the plate, never said or tried to post numbers saying he did. I pointed out the sample was small and in fairness to Ted, I could not come to a conclusion.

                              I did say and still do, I'm a bit surprised that in what I was aware of, that the small sample showed a wider gap than I would have thought, Ted's average against LH pitchers, pitching complete games against the Bosox.

                              So now you raise the issue of age, understandable but even when young Ted hit lower against some LH pitching, not terrible just lower than I would have guessed.

                              1939 to 1951------Ted was 32 years old in 1951.
                              369 at bats----Ba.256

                              369 at bats is still rather small but a better comparison than pointing out some single seasons where he had 30 or 50 at bats and age was not a factor here.

                              So can I say it again, the sample above is small but age does not figure in.
                              Can I say this again, if you read my posts I think it's evident I'm not knocking Ted's hitting against LH pitchers.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                                I;ve said it before but we really have no way of knowing that he did that poorly against lefties.
                                We have over 5000 PA's worth of information. We have a very good idea how he did because that's more than half of his career represented.

                                Post

                                You're right, Ubi, he was a "pretty good" hitter against lefties. .297 hitter with a .473 career slugging percentage. Certainly befitting of the greatest hitter who ever lived. Guy with only a very good average and a VERY mediocre slugging percentage.

                                He drew lots of walks, but so do lots of players with decent averages and low slugging. That doesn't make them awesome hitters. We're talking about Ted Williams as the so-called "greatest hitter who ever lived".

                                Meanwhile he went .345 with a .647 slugging against RHP. He had 855 walks and only 256 strikeouts vs. righties. Versus lefties, 193 walks vs. 127 strikeouts. So again, unless there's some drastic, vast turnaround for the years we don't have yet available, it's quite clear that Ted Williams was very much neutralized by left handed pitching. The disparity in production is simply vast.

                                His OPS against RHP is 1.135, which would but him a scintilla behind Babe Ruth for the #1 spot alltime.

                                His OPS against LHP for the years we have available is .895, which puts him outside of the top 60 alltime, right near guys like Mickey Cochrane, Hal Trotsky, and Indian Bob Johnson. True, it's more his later years, but it's also true that the OPS isn't park adjusted, which mitigates much of the difference anyway.

                                And what we just learned here, coutesty of ShoelessJoe, is that in another full season's worth of AB's- his entire career against left handers pitching CG's, he hit an incredible .244. It's a comparatively small piece of information, but congruous with and supportive of everything else that's come to light.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X