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What do you think is the single best offensive statistic to judge hitters by?
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Batting average (with the limited amount of plate appearances of course). Someone going 1-1 and who is batting .1000 doesn't count. :cap:Originally posted by Stat One Author View Post -
While I know most of you guys are miles ahead of me...I gotta go with OBP. I will take it over OPS most of the time. Why? Simple...because as is the case with a guy like, I dunno, say Andre Dawson, his OPS is brought WAY up by his slugging percentage. With a guy like Nellie Fox (a mid level Hall of Famer who gets in because of his glove was certainly no slouch as a hitter considering his position and the era in which he played said position), his OPS is dragged DOWN because of a very low slugging percentage. Yet, he was a disciplined hitter with a career OBP of .348. Another guy dragged down by his OPS would be Pete Rose, who never REALLY hit for power. Dawson's career OPS is .805 (vs. a league average of .718). Pete Rose? .784 vs. a league average of .721. But Rose got on base at a .375 clip. And Andre Dawson? .323.
I don't think there's any one all-encompassing stat for hitting. You just have to look at everything. There's a reason why I like looking at stat lines as being four places (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS) rather than one (or three for that matter)."They put me in the Hall of Fame? They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel!"
-Eppa Rixey, upon learning of his induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Motafy (MO-ta-fy) vt. -fied, -fying 1. For a pitcher to melt down in a big game situation; to become like Guillermo Mota. 2. The transformation of a good pitcher into one of Guillermo Mota's caliber.Comment
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I think if you're talking about judging hitters and which stat tells you the most about a hitter, I think it would either be slugging average or batting average ahead of OBP. OBP is nice, but it's a number that raises when the hitter doesn't even swing the bat. Miller Huggins had a higher OBP than SA every year of his career. If we just looked at his OBP, someone might take him for a feared slugger, lol.
OPS should be disqualified from consideration imo, because it's really two stats.Comment
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Well, for that matter so is BA! You have to have two pieces of statistical data to calculate it.Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
H/AB
Granted, OBS requires many more pieces of data. Anything that is percentage-based is going to require, at a minimum, two pieces of data.
David Emerling
Memphis, TNComment
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The question should never be asked. Whether a particular metric is "the best" or even good depends on the specific problem you are trying to solve.Comment
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If you want to play that game, then OPS is far more than two. You know what I meant.Originally posted by Memphis View Post
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The basic problem with OPS is the built-in assumption that OBP and SLG are equally valuable.Comment
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True.Originally posted by spark240 View Post
I always wonder about that. Different types of hitters need to be judged by something else it seems, or at least be judged on a different scale if you go by OPS. Why should a guy like Ichiro be compared with a ManRam with OPS. Seems pretty unfair.Comment
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Batting average? Are you kidding me?
EqA is probably best if you are trying to determine who is the best batter.Comment
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The best stat is of course SB*HR. Or maybe HR/K.Comment
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OPS+, but if the ridiculous examples of 2 plate apps are allowed, then total bases?Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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Um, It's not (R+RBI) - HR...
And it has to have a component to address league averages and offensive context.
Or else you might do some silly things, like extol the virtues of Chuck Klein's 1930 as one of the best single seasons ever, ignoring the fact that the entire league hit about .320, and his OPS+ was a very good, but not all-time-y 159. You might rank Klein, say, 97th of all position players, while not even discussing a guy like Gary Sheffield in a section limited to only players of his own position, even though Sheff had better numbers relative to his peers than Klein did in 1930 half a dozen times throughout his career....
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD
In the avy: AZ - Doe or DieComment
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Yes and no...Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
I mean they should be compared so that people can understand the point that no matter how many singles Ichiro hits, he is just unable to produce at the rate of an all time great hitter like Manny.
OPS is indeed flawed. One, it overvalues singles in relation to walks, by OPS calculations, a single is twice as valuable, though in reality it is not (especially from a guy like Ichiro, who will have 162 ABs a year, minimum, when there would be zero difference, since there's nobody on leading off the game - and he get so many IF type hits that don't advance runners multiple bases anyway). I digress though...
Basically, you are combining one stat that exists on a scale of 0-4, and another that exists on a scale of 0-1. Tango's wOPS, I believe he called it, calibrates both components correctly.
But, misterdirt drops the knowledge as usual. You don't look into a toolbox and ask what the best tool is. You look at the problem and then decide what the best tool to use to fix it is.
Full disclosure, I'm not at all handy with real tools - so that's one stereotypical trait of a stat geek down...THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD
In the avy: AZ - Doe or DieComment
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Neither am I. All I can do is change the oil in my car and my household tool expertise consists of hammering nails into a wall to hang framed Babe Ruth pictures...sad ain't it. Was always busy playing sports growing up...never time to learn much else.Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
Anyway, I agree with your toolbox analogy. So I will ask this in reverse. What problem could you be faced with, where you'd reach into the toolbox for OPS.Comment
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