Fielding Arm Stats?

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Boy, is it frustrating to sift through the fielding stats. They simply don't tell me who's who in defense. Is Albert Pujols really the second greatest fielding first baseman? Was Joe Morgan not all he was cracked up to be?

Besides my misery in fielding, are there any statistics/databases that describe the fielding arms of historical players?

[Jackaroo Dave]

Fangraphs has a stat called ARM which I've seen called rARM and ofARM. It does not go back terribly far, though, and is only for outfielders. In my brief search, I didn't find a discussion of its method, but I believe it's like the inverse of the extra base taken stat.

There is also a stat based on accumulated fan ratings that I think Tom Tiger started and maybe still runs. The player is rated over all as a fielder and then by components: hands, release time, range, etc. I'm aorry I can't be more specific, but I think you could run it down with google given this quasi information.

Good luck. I share your frustration and wish you success.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Boy, is it frustrating to sift through the fielding stats. They simply don't tell me who's who in defense. Is Albert Pujols really the second greatest fielding first baseman? Was Joe Morgan not all he was cracked up to be?

Besides my misery in fielding, are there any statistics/databases that describe the fielding arms of historical players?

On Pujols:

We all know that there is not desired correlation between the fielding metrics (UZR, +/-, DRA, TZ, etc.) However, they are all in total agreement that Pujols has been a dominat defender at first base. All of them.

He has won 2 or 3 Gold Gloves and may win another this year. Should have won more. On something called "the Fans Scouting Reprt" (which Jack mentioned above), in which thousand of internet users rank every baseball player defensively just based on eye-witness testimony (no sabermetrics), Pujols has ranked first or second in the majors in defense every year they have been doing it, which I think it 6-7 years.

Just based on my own observations, Pujols is the best 1B defender to his right that I have ever seen. The best. He is well-above average picking the ball and is also the best I have ever seen at throwing out runners trying to advance bases. I have never seen a 1B throw out more guys at 3B - just ask Chase Utley. Pujols is good to his left, but plays so far to his right to make up for what has been pretty poor 2B defense in STL, that he isn't as great preventing balls down the line. Pujols is also very, very good at going back on popups/reaching into the stands for balls. Is he the second best defensive 1B ever? I don't know, but he is definitely in the running.

My question to you is, why does/this surprise you? A lot of times we think of big sluggers as being poor defensively, and that is where some bias comes in. But yeah, Pujols is the real deal defensively.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Fangraphs has a stat called ARM which I've seen called rARM and ofARM. It does not go back terribly far, though, and is only for outfielders. In my brief search, I didn't find a discussion of its method, but I believe it's like the inverse of the extra base taken stat.

There is also a stat based on accumulated fan ratings that I think Tom Tiger started and maybe still runs. The player is rated over all as a fielder and then by components: hands, release time, range, etc. I'm aorry I can't be more specific, but I think you could run it down with google given this quasi information.

Good luck. I share your frustration and wish you success.

Thanks. I have heard of to Tiger's polls, I believe they are on his website. They don't seem terribly reliable, though. Too much subjectivity by fans of all degrees.

[ipitch]

On Pujols:

We all know that there is not desired correlation between the fielding metrics (UZR, +/-, DRA, TZ, etc.) However, they are all in total agreement that Pujols has been a dominat defender at first base. All of them.

If these numbers (from Yahoo Answers) are correct, then he doesn't look very dominant to me.

Zone Rating / 150 innings (and total UZR) over past 4 seasons:
Casey Kotchman 6.6 (20.6)
Mark Teixeira 5.2 (21.7)
Joey Votto 5.2 (19.5)
Albert Pujols 3.9 (18.3)
Adrian Gonzalez 3.5 (14.9)

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

My question to you is, why does/this surprise you? A lot of times we think of big sluggers as being poor defensively, and that is where some bias comes in. But yeah, Pujols is the real deal defensively.

I think you misunderstood me. I posed the question rhetorically to show my frustration. I don't believe Pujols is a poor fielder whatsoever. I'm probably treasurer of his fan club.

[Bothrops Atrox]

If these numbers (from Yahoo Answers) are correct, then he doesn't look very dominant to me.

Zone Rating / 150 innings (and total UZR) over past 4 seasons:
Casey Kotchman 6.6 (20.6)
Mark Teixeira 5.2 (21.7)
Joey Votto 5.2 (19.5)
Albert Pujols 3.9 (18.3)
Adrian Gonzalez 3.5 (14.9)

He has decline a bit over the past few years, but he was dominant from 2004-2008 and still above average from 2009-2012. Of yours you selected the one that is least favorable too.

+/- has him + 44 runs the past 4 years. TZ has him + 25 runs. DRA has him +65 the past 4 years. Defensive Win Shares has him close to over +25 too.

Not bad for a guy who has been slowing down defensively. Both DRA and TZ, which go back to the beginning, have Pujols in the top 2-3 all-time. Since were are thinking about Pujols' whole career and not just an arbitrary number of years (say 4), I''l trust that the overall body of evidence from eye-witness and saber-metrics supersedes the one metric that shows him very good but not the best for 4 years.

[ipitch]

He has decline a bit over the past few years, but he was dominant from 2004-2008 and still above average from 2009-2012. Of yours you selected the one that is least favorable too.

+/- has him + 44 runs the past 4 years. TZ has him + 25 runs. DRA has him +65 the past 4 years. Defensive Win Shares has him close to +30.

Not bad for a guy who has been slowing down defensively.

I'm sure he's pretty good, but you say he's been dominant and then you only show us HIS numbers. Without other 1st baseman's numbers, no one can tell if he's #1 by far or merely #3 or #7.

[Bothrops Atrox]

I'm sure he's pretty good, but you say he's been dominant and then you only show us HIS numbers. Without other 1st baseman's numbers, no one can tell if he's #1 by far or merely #3 or #7.

If TZ and DRS and DWS are showing him top 5 All-Time, is it necessary to show how he compares to other current
1B when he is past his prime? If he is top 5 all-time, I do not really care if he is only 5th right now.

And even since data has been kept since 2003 or so, I bet he is tops in all of them, with UZR being the exception. He is still +80 or so @ 1B according to UZR, so he would still be at the top.

[ipitch]

If TZ and DRS and DWS are showing him top 5 All-Time, is it necessary to show how he compares to other current 1B when he is past his prime?

I don't doubt you, but I'm just asking for a link or something that actually shows that he is/was dominant compared to other 1st baseman. Being in the top 5 all-time does not mean he is/was better than another current 1st baseman that is also past his prime.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Total Zone Rankings for NL: 1st every year from 2004-2009 and 3rd in 2012
Range Factor: 1st from 2004-2006 and 2009-2011 and 2nd in 2012.

Can't find any rankings otherwise, but consider Pujols is twice as good according to DRA, I would imagine he was the premier fielder during those years too.

[ipitch]

I''l trust that the overall body of evidence from eye-witness and saber-metrics supersedes the one metric that shows him very good but not the best for 4 years.

You're the one that brought UZR up in the first place, so don't blame me for posting the UZR rankings. If UZR showed him to be #1, I'm sure you'd change your tune.

Total Zone Rankings for NL: 1st every year from 2004-2009 and 3rd in 2012
Range Factor: 1st from 2004-2006 and 2009-2011 and 2nd in 2012.

Now we just need the AL stats.

[Bothrops Atrox]

You're the one that brought UZR up in the first place, so don't blame me for posting the UZR rankings. If UZR showed him to be #1, I'm sure you'd change your tune.

Right - because throwing out the only outlier is always a sign of bias. I didn't even suggest throwing out UZR, I would use it in combination with the other stats.

I gave you the AL stats I could find - his TZ is 3rd in the AL and his Range Factor is 2nd.

[leewileyfan]

FWIW: I am pasting and patching a relevant study for 1B from my own thread on Evolving MLB Defense. I offer it only ecause some posters here did ask me to start a thread of my own. In two + months, the thread has had over 1,500 viewings; but getting feedback is harder than findong cavities on hens' teeth.

In any event, here it is:

leewileyfan
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In a thread entitled Total Zone Runs, Tyrus....Cobb asked what we thought of that metric and if there was some credible metric for evaluating players across generations. He specifically cited 1B and the TZ position that Albert Pujols is the greatest defensive 1B of all time. I posted over 30 nominees from1901-Present, separated into playing generations, just listing thosw whom I thought might warrant consideration as "competition" for Pujols.

Last night I decided to prune that list by running defensive ratings for each 1B I had listed, to find how my metric measures all of these and Albert Pujols.

For 1B whose careers were almost entirely pre 1921 and the live ball and the introduction of the "web" into MLB mitts and gloves, I tweaked the value inputs slightly for PO, A and DPs [not a whole lot, but a bit], while leaving the E penalty alone. Therefter, since the original later glove innovations, like the basic "Trapper" design were introduced by the early 1930's, I essentially left all subsequent input models alone.

If any playing generation is discounted by these methods, I believe it would be the group that played between 1924 and 1962 [but I don't believ whatever bias would amount to very much].

This exercise is also, I hope, demonstrably responsive to those who have asked if my metric is sensitive to changes in the game.

Group 1: The Deadball Era, Pre 1921 ball change and web introduction to glove design.

Chick Gandil .967
Ed Konetchty .949
Stuffy McInnis .949
Jiggs Donahue .946 ... Gandil moves on vs. next group ...

Early Live ball Era:

George "Highpockets" Kelly .970
Jack Burns .955 ... Kelly and Gandil move on


P.S. ADD: Bill Terrry, inadvertently omitted = .971

Live Ball Pre-Post War; Pre-Expansion:

Frank McCormick .970
George McQuinn .961
Elbie Fletcher .965
Ferris Fain .988
Gil Hodges .975
Stan Musial .968
Vic Power .991

Fain, Power and Hodges move on, with Kelly and Gandil

Expansion Era:

Ernie Banks .967
Joe Pepitone .971
Donn Clendennon .980
Bob Robertson .984 [only 544 games]
George Scott .958
John Mayberry .964
Lee May .960
Keith Hernandez 1.101
Rod Carew .978
Chris Chambliss .972
Eddie Murray .973
Bill Buckner .983
Don Mattingly .977

Keith Hernandez, a TEMPLATE-buster, certainly moves on ... and Buckner [nothwithstanding that indelible WS film clip] was a darn good 1B.

Modern Day Ball:

Joyner .983
Grace .962
Clark .967
Palmeiro .968
Bagwell .964
Galarraga ..959
Helton .997
Olerud .960
Pena .960
Teixeira .956
Pujols 1.004

Here we have three possible candidates: Pujols, certainly; Helton so close as to be a virtual tie; and Wally Joyner, a reasonable candidate.

In sum, for this quick study, my metric would list these as the best defensive 1B [1901-Present]:

1. Keith Hernandez
2. Albert Pujols
3. Todd Helton
4. Vic Power
5. Ferris Fain
6. Gil Hodges
7. Wally Joyner
8. George "Hichpockets" Kelly
9. Bill Terry
10.Frank McCormick
11. Donn Clendennon
Last edited by leewileyfan; 04-28-2012 at 11:08 AM.

For anyone who might be interested, players are rated ONLY for seasons between 1901 and the present. Rating are position specific; and the ratings themselves are, numerically precise and defense-related solely.

As an added note, there have been, through those 112 seasons, a number of players, mostly outfielders, who have earned reputations for their throwing arms. One, in particular, was from the just pre-WWII era and had a career pretty well decimated by years in miilitary service. That was Bob Kennedy, about whom we don't hear very much anymore. Another great arm was the forgotten DiMaggio brother, Vince.

[Ubiquitous]

UZR, DRS, TZ, +/-, etc all use basically the same data and use it roughly the same. There are slight differences but it doesn't really mean much if they are all in agreement since they are all using the same data.

Keith Hernandez is probably the greatest post-deadball era defensive first basemen and nobody else is really even close to him. Comparing him defensively to the rest of the first basemen is like comparing Ozzie Smith defensively to first basemen. That's how large the disparity is.

Keith as compared to deadballers is probably a typical great deadball era defensive first baseman. The big difference being that in modern days a player can stay healthy and active longer.

Fred Tenney was one of the best defensive first basemen of that era and Keith would fit right in with him and his tier.