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  • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Yup will do. Anyone you want him compared to?
    Well other right handed hitters of your choice maybe? I'd like to find the top rrOPS+ seasons for right handed hitters. (qualifying). Piazza '97 probably topped 200. Hornsby did to a few times I guess.

    Comment


    • Well I just did Pujols 2009 its at 206
      "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

      ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

      Comment


      • Here ya go

        DiMagYearly.jpg
        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 08-25-2016, 06:03 PM.
        "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

        ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

        Comment


        • Sultan, have you looked at Votto's rrOPS+? It looks like it is way up there.

          Comment


          • Yup post 681.

            Looks like his road line this year is .332/.445/.536

            He'd be better served playing half his home games in a different park.
            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
              Yup post 681.

              Looks like his road line this year is .332/.445/.536

              He'd be better served playing half his home games in a different park.
              Any idea why this is? For the last couple years, Cincinnati has been a neutral ballpark and before that it was a hitters park. Are lefties penalized there, with righties getting a bigger boost? Or is it particular to Votto?

              Perhaps he performs better on the road because he is under a lot of pressure at home?
              On one hand, the White Sox had to forfeit a game. On the other hand, disco was finally killed off. So overall, it was a win.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZaXq338HN4


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              • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                Any idea why this is? For the last couple years, Cincinnati has been a neutral ballpark and before that it was a hitters park. Are lefties penalized there, with righties getting a bigger boost? Or is it particular to Votto?

                Perhaps he performs better on the road because he is under a lot of pressure at home?
                It is not about whether a guy is in a hitters park or not. Someone could be in a low park factor park and have it help their relative rates IF they were a better fit for the park. Someone could play in a hitters park and have their relative rates hurt because they didn't gain the same benefit as other hitters did in that park.

                Your question is a good one though. Some parks benefit fly ball hitters who have some power. Some with fast surfaces have benefitted ground ball hitters with speed. And of course some have helped due to their asymmetric dimensions.

                Since most hitters produce about 3-5% lower percentages on the road than at home, perhaps there are just some guys who don't feel the road deficit as much. Perhaps just playing in a very normal park would help someone to not have as big of a road drop off because their home park does not cause them to develop certain tendancies although there is evidence that pitchers pitch better at home and that fielders field better at home as well, so even a hitter who adjusts well on the road should lose/gain some production due to the opposition performing up or down, home or road.
                Last edited by brett; 09-01-2016, 09:01 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by brett View Post
                  It is not about whether a guy is in a hitters park or not. Someone could be in a low park factor park and have it help their relative rates IF they were a better fit for the park. Someone could play in a hitters park and have their relative rates hurt because they didn't gain the same benefit as other hitters did in that park.

                  Your question is a good one though. Some parks benefit fly ball hitters who have some power. Some with fast surfaces have benefitted ground ball hitters with speed. And of course some have helped due to their asymmetric dimensions.

                  Since most hitters produce about 3-5% lower percentages on the road than at home, perhaps there are just some guys who don't feel the road deficit as much. Perhaps just playing in a very normal park would help someone to not have as big of a road drop off because their home park does not cause them to develop certain tendancies although there is evidence that pitchers pitch better at home and that fielders field better at home as well, so even a hitter who adjusts well on the road should lose/gain some production due to the opposition performing up or down, home or road.
                  I still have a problem with that one Brett.
                  Here is the simple way. Just an example that I choose some Bosox hitters, to put it mildly, hugh difference home/away, hugh. Obviously they did benefit, some did.
                  The years they played in Fenway as their home park, just about half of their PA or at bats were in that hitter's park.
                  Would their stats in those years overall be as high if half of their PA/at bats bats were not in that hitters park.
                  Fenway is hitters heaven, yet I see some disputing that. Numbers tell the story.
                  Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-01-2016, 05:20 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                    I still have a problem with that one Brett.
                    Here is the simple way. Just an example that I choose some Bosox hitters, to put it mildly, hugh difference home/away, hugh. Obviously they did benefit, some did.
                    The years they played in Fenway as their home park, just about half of their PA or at bats were in that hitter's park.
                    Would their stats in those years overall be as high if half of their PA/at bats bats were not in that hitters park.
                    Fenway is hitters heaven, yet I see some disputing that. Numbers tell the story.
                    Well, what you brought up is another factor, which has to do with weighing playing time. Don't you agree with the statement though: someone "could" play in a hitter's park and have their relative rates hurt becaue they didn't gain as much as other hitters did in that park?

                    Now if a player was better in an offensive home park, and worse on the road, then YES the home rates will have a larger effect because they will rack up more PAs at home in the park that they have better relative stats in. This IS what happens with Rice, Yaz, Boggs. They were BETTER relative hitters at home, and because it was an offensive home park the home rates count extra. Now you are also right that even if they were not getting the normal boost from their park, it ends up raising their overall rates because of the additional PAs.

                    So theoretically a player could have, say a 120 relative OPS+ at home and a 130 on the road, but if his home park was a big offensive park, his OPS+ could ironically be higher than 125 (the average of home and road) because his home numbers still raise his overall rates, but his home environment is only weighted half. When we find a players "league" rates, say a .335 league on base and .402 slugging sans pitchers, it is currently based on the assumption that half of all playing time occurs at home and half on the road for everyone on that team for that year. It should be weighted by PA for each player.

                    Still, a player can play in a good offensive park that doesn't match his tools, and end up having his OPS+ hurt by it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by brett View Post
                      Well, what you brought up is another factor, which has to do with weighing playing time. Don't you agree with the statement though: someone "could" play in a hitter's park and have their relative rates hurt becaue they didn't gain as much as other hitters did in that park?

                      Now if a player was better in an offensive home park, and worse on the road, then YES the home rates will have a larger effect because they will rack up more PAs at home in the park that they have better relative stats in. This IS what happens with Rice, Yaz, Boggs. They were BETTER relative hitters at home, and because it was an offensive home park the home rates count extra. Now you are also right that even if they were not getting the normal boost from their park, it ends up raising their overall rates because of the additional PAs.

                      So theoretically a player could have, say a 120 relative OPS+ at home and a 130 on the road, but if his home park was a big offensive park, his OPS+ could ironically be higher than 125 (the average of home and road) because his home numbers still raise his overall rates, but his home environment is only weighted half. When we find a players "league" rates, say a .335 league on base and .402 slugging sans pitchers, it is currently based on the assumption that half of all playing time occurs at home and half on the road for everyone on that team for that year. It should be weighted by PA for each player.

                      Still, a player can play in a good offensive park that doesn't match his tools, and end up having his OPS+ hurt by it.
                      That was my point, that one paragraph.

                      Comment


                      • Ok Brett, here ya go. Hopefully it's easy to distinguish.

                        I was originally going to put Piazza with other catchers only, to show the utter domination but there's no need. As you can see, as expected from a catcher, an early decline, but in his prime he holds his own with the big boys at his best.
                        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 09-05-2016, 02:32 PM.
                        "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                        ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                          That was my point, that one paragraph.
                          This is more of a flaw with how a player's "league" rates are calculated. If home and road league rates get weighted by plate appearance it goes away because their home environment will get weighted more, however keep in mind that teams get typically about 5% fewer plate appearances at home to begin with. Not many home parks provide enough extra offense to offset that.

                          Comment


                          • Check out Kyle Seager. Perhaps he could use this as leverage at the negotiating table.

                            rrOPS+ / raw OPS+

                            2011 - 123/98 (201 PA)
                            2012 - 126/108
                            2013 - 130/118
                            2014 - 105/126 (fluke year...in 7 road parks got 9 hits in 92 PA)
                            2015 - 138/117
                            2016 - 145/144
                            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                            Comment


                            • Brett,

                              I know I've brought this up before, but I'd really appreciate if you put some thought into this. There HAS to be a way to give leadoff hitters (that specific role of all roles) their due. I mean seriously, you have the greatest leadoff hitter Rickey Henderson being lucky to be in peeps' top 30 all-time. I've thought about counting stolen bases as total bases to help their SA but that's probably a bit much. Isn't there SOME WAY we can put their value into perspective statistically?
                              "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                              ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                              Comment


                              • The get a boost in career value in regards to counting numbers because of more PA. And at least one a game they have zero chance of hitting into a DP.

                                On a side note it seems strange (to me) to give them credit for playing a particular role in the offense (table setting), and then turn around and compare them to everyone.

                                It would seem more natural (to me) to compare everyone who hit first or second nearly all of the time to those players who also hit first or second nearly all of the time.

                                If in fact you wanted to focus in on those particular skills often demonstrated by table setters.
                                Your Second Base Coach
                                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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