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  • WARP3 bothers me...it says it's LQ adjusted but doesn't tell us how LQ was assessed.

    Comment


    • I would point out, Chris that PCA is pretty era-balanced too...without a significant era adjustment (it's normalized, but that doesn't account for all of the differences in the scoring distributions)

      Comment


      • BTW I just noticed that someone asked about where Nomar Garciaparra ranked from 1997-2003 among shortstops.

        This is what his PCA lines for hitting and fielding look like:
        Code:
        Fielding
        Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
        1996	18	0.24	0.247
        1997	152	2.41	0.258
        1998	141	2.36	0.262
        1999	131	2.92	0.287
        2000	131	3.51	0.307
        2001	22	0.28	0.245
        2002	153	3.71	0.296
        2003	150	2.32	0.257
        2004	31	0.60	0.274
        2004	38	0.77	0.278
        
        CAREER PCA-BA: .276 (above average despite some injuries)
        
        Batting
        Yr	SumOfPA	Wins	PCA-BA
        1996	93	0.56	0.268
        1997	734	8.38	0.301
        1998	652	8.53	0.312
        1999	595	10.58	0.341
        2000	599	11.66	0.351
        2001	91	0.72	0.280
        2002	693	7.33	0.296
        2003	719	7.30	0.294
        2004	354	2.82	0.289
        
        CAREER PCA-BA: .310
        The injury in 2001 really messed up his career...he was on a smooth arc toward becoming every bit Alex Rodriguez' and Derek Jeter's equal until that happened and he never really recovered at least not yet...although in 2006, playing a less demanding position his hitting has returned.

        A-Rod and Jeter had their strengths and weaknesses...Nomar wasn't overwhelming either offensively or defensively but he didn't have any faults really. A-Rod was the better overall player but it was close.

        Comment


        • Defensive PCA-BA for...

          Brooks Robinson
          Jimmy Collins
          Mike Schmidt
          "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

          ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

          Comment


          • heh...picking up on some of the best third base glovemen?

            You left out Clete Boyer.

            Your three requested players:
            Code:
            Brooks Robinson
            Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
            1955	4	0.01	0.214
            1956	12	0.07	0.231
            1957	32	0.36	0.265
            1958	129	1.89	0.284
            1959	84	1.49	0.303
            1960	154	3.80	0.344
            1961	163	2.82	0.300
            1962	162	2.23	0.279
            1963	159	2.51	0.291
            1964	163	2.60	0.292
            1965	143	1.82	0.273
            1966	157	2.72	0.301
            1967	159	3.89	0.343
            1968	162	4.60	0.366
            1969	151	3.96	0.353
            1970	157	2.11	0.278
            1971	153	2.98	0.313
            1972	154	2.75	0.304
            1973	149	3.73	0.346
            1974	150	2.57	0.299
            1975	130	3.13	0.340
            1976	60	0.45	0.242
            1977	10	0.12	0.267
            
            CAREER PCA-BA: .309 (a solid 9th all time among 3rd basemen with 800 EqG)
            
            Jimmy Collins
            Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
            1895	79	0.72	0.252
            1896	86	2.00	0.336
            1897	133	3.80	0.367
            1898	152	4.17	0.360
            1899	151	3.79	0.346
            1900	142	3.90	0.360
            1901	138	3.82	0.361
            1902	108	2.67	0.344
            1903	133	3.65	0.360
            1904	157	3.29	0.322
            1905	131	2.11	0.293
            1906	34	0.21	0.234
            1907	96	0.54	0.232
            1907	37	0.68	0.307
            1908	118	0.90	0.243
            
            CAREER PCA-BA: .324 (3rd all-time - same qualifications)
            
            Mike Schmidt
            Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
            1972	9	0.18	0.314
            1973	117	1.63	0.281
            1974	162	2.84	0.302
            1975	149	3.19	0.324
            1976	162	3.44	0.324
            1977	149	2.73	0.306
            1978	140	2.85	0.319
            1979	154	3.53	0.333
            1980	148	3.69	0.345
            1981	98	2.45	0.346
            1982	146	1.59	0.263
            1983	152	2.03	0.277
            1984	138	1.79	0.275
            1985	52	0.45	0.249
            1986	108	1.22	0.265
            1987	132	2.82	0.324
            1988	108	0.74	0.239
            1989	33	0.30	0.252
            
            CAREER PCA-BA: .301 (13th all time, tied with Heinie Groh and Red Rolfe)
            
            The one you forgot!
            Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
            1955	6	0.08	0.275
            1956	5	0.09	0.309
            1959	11	0.10	0.250
            1960	90	1.91	0.323
            1961	137	3.76	0.360
            1962	155	3.84	0.344
            1963	141	4.03	0.367
            1964	115	2.92	0.348
            1965	138	3.60	0.352
            1966	89	1.57	0.302
            1967	145	2.60	0.304
            1968	68	1.25	0.306
            1969	136	3.31	0.342
            1970	123	2.23	0.305
            1971	24	0.45	0.308
            
            CAREER PCA-BA: .334 (He's #1)
            Of course if you want to look at a player's defensive GREATNESS you need more info than just career scoring rate...so here's the GI defensive panel at third base.
            Code:
            First	Last    	HOF	Rank	PsEqG	Career	Rate	Mastery	TOTAL	Ps
            Brooks	Robinson	Y	1	2797	52.61	42.85	31.07	126.54	3B
            Clete	Boyer   	N	2	1383	35.37	40.8	38.58	114.75	3B
            Jimmy	Collins 	Y	3	1695	36.63	39.94	37.61	114.19	3B
            Tim	Wallach 	N	4	2012	38.27	36.69	30.90	105.86	3B
            Buddy	Bell    	N	5	2149	39.05	35.15	31.47	105.67	3B
            Jimmie	Dykes   	N	6	1238	32.88	29.60	41.21	103.70	3B
            Terry	Pendleton	N	7	1753	35.19	38.20	29.95	103.35	3B
            Mike	Schmidt 	Y	8	2157	39.15	35.49	28.54	103.18	3B
            Pie	Traynor 	Y	9	1878	35.06	36.00	30.61	101.66	3B
            Ron	Santo   	N	10	2109	36.48	34.44	28.96	99.89	3B
            Graig	Nettles 	N	11	2327	38.10	33.45	27.80	99.35	3B
            Gary	Gaetti  	N	12	2191	37.00	33.39	27.89	98.27	3B
            Willie	Kamm    	N	13	1656	32.00	36.20	28.70	96.90	3B
            Billy	Nash    	N	14	1475	29.37	34.91	30.03	94.31	3B
            Scott	Rolen   	N	15	1184	25.71	35.65	31.58	92.94	3B
            Frank	Baker   	Y	16	1542	29.41	34.99	27.37	91.77	3B
            Heinie	Groh    	N	17	1262	28.39	33.94	29.30	91.63	3B
            George	Brett   	Y	18	1636	31.67	30.42	28.46	90.56	3B
            Billy	Werber  	N	19	1127	23.32	32.56	29.96	85.83	3B
            Harry	Steinfeldt	N	20	1404	27.17	31.61	26.10	84.88	3B
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-27-2007, 08:42 AM.

            Comment


            • Thanks Matt. Looks like Collins has Brooksie in "mastery" by a rather substantial margin, no?

              Can I get career/rate/mastery/total and defensive PCA-BA for...

              Joe Jackson
              Stan Musial
              Rickey Henderon

              btw: your welcome for bringing this thread back to life I Know you dig showing off all your hard work
              Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 08-21-2006, 04:12 AM.
              "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

              ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

              Comment


              • Was that you who promoted this thread again?

                Thanks...PCA might not be truly revolutionary, and of course, it has its' flaws, but I am still proud of the work and believe it is fundamentally more well rounded and the conclusions more logical most of the time than WS which is what I was competing with primarily when I did this work...LOL Granted my opinion of the system is just my opinion, so YMMV

                And yes...Collins was the more talented fielder between he and Brooksie IMHO. Robinson was mechanically astoundingly consistent...his performance year in and year out was just plain bankable.

                The three careers you requested...first the Defensive data:
                Code:
                Stan Musial
                RF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1941	9	0.03	0.227
                1943	120	4.21	0.365
                1944	117	3.42	0.340
                1948	66	1.23	0.294
                1949	103	2.36	0.312
                1950	9	0.10	0.262
                1952	10	0.11	0.261
                1953	23	0.31	0.270
                1954	144	-0.19	0.206
                1955	22	0.23	0.258
                1956	45	0.44	0.254
                1960	5	0.02	0.227
                1962	20	0.06	0.225
                LF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1941	2	0.04	0.299
                1942	111	3.26	0.358
                1943	34	0.58	0.295
                1946	48	0.79	0.292
                1948	36	0.19	0.236
                1949	2	0.05	0.335
                1950	43	0.27	0.240
                1951	82	1.23	0.285
                1952	24	0.12	0.233
                1953	139	0.18	0.215
                1954	7	0.03	0.231
                1955	14	0.07	0.234
                1956	2	0.03	0.293
                1960	49	0.22	0.231
                1961	77	2.26	0.358
                1962	78	2.47	0.371
                1963	61	1.05	0.297
                1B
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1946	116	0.63	0.243
                1947	147	2.38	0.310
                1948	1	-0.01	0.157
                1949	1	0.00	0.205
                1950	66	1.21	0.324
                1951	60	0.98	0.311
                1952	21	0.10	0.239
                1954	4	0.00	0.201
                1955	103	1.72	0.314
                1956	94	1.32	0.296
                1957	122	0.73	0.246
                1958	117	1.82	0.306
                1959	75	0.60	0.259
                1960	24	0.20	0.261
                
                CAREER PCA-BA: .290 in RF, .289 in LF, and .286 at first base - .288 total
                
                Rickey Henderson
                CF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1979	26	0.26	0.245
                1982	8	0.27	0.331
                1983	8	0.25	0.322
                1984	4	0.05	0.257
                1985	135	5.18	0.349
                1986	138	4.83	0.337
                1987	39	0.83	0.286
                1988	2	0.03	0.268
                1994	9	0.11	0.254
                1996	5	0.08	0.264
                1997	16	0.19	0.251
                1997	2	0.06	0.311
                1998	13	0.13	0.245
                2002	2	0.03	0.269
                LF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1979	63	0.54	0.252
                1980	152	5.18	0.383
                1981	107	3.45	0.373
                1982	137	2.01	0.283
                1983	128	1.70	0.276
                1984	131	0.83	0.241
                1985	7	0.19	0.348
                1986	14	0.16	0.265
                1987	37	0.62	0.294
                1988	125	0.84	0.243
                1989	65	0.42	0.241
                1989	77	2.63	0.383
                1990	116	2.56	0.321
                1991	105	2.03	0.307
                1992	97	2.29	0.329
                1993	73	1.40	0.306
                1993	38	0.58	0.286
                1994	60	1.17	0.308
                1995	72	0.74	0.261
                1996	100	1.97	0.309
                1997	57	0.35	0.240
                1997	9	0.14	0.285
                1998	123	1.44	0.268
                1999	99	0.22	0.220
                2000	83	0.85	0.261
                2000	20	0.16	0.250
                2001	89	0.76	0.252
                2002	46	0.35	0.247
                2003	15	0.07	0.231
                
                CAREER PCA-BA: .319 in CF, .289 in LF, .296 overall
                
                Joe Jackson
                RF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1910	7	0.06	0.247
                1911	105	2.63	0.321
                1912	123	4.25	0.363
                1913	151	2.59	0.287
                1914	85	1.64	0.296
                1915	37	0.42	0.261
                1916	24	0.71	0.341
                1917	12	0.30	0.320
                1918	3	0.03	0.251
                1919	5	0.14	0.334
                LF
                Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
                1909	5	0.08	0.288
                1915	4	0.04	0.266
                1915	18	0.30	0.294
                1916	133	0.57	0.230
                1917	137	1.73	0.273
                1918	12	0.18	0.286
                1919	132	-0.39	0.193
                1920	149	1.05	0.244
                
                CAREER PCA-BA: .313 in RF, .239 in LF, .275 overall
                A few comments. Stan Musial is an excellent example of a player who was managed almost perfectly. When there was a sense that he was beginning to decline as a RFer...they slid him to left where he flourished for a few more years...when he started declining there they moved him to first base where he once again flourished...in so doing they turned a player who today would have spent too long in LF and been rated as a weaker fielder overall...kinda like what happened to Bernie Williams...into a player that is rememb ered as capable of handling all of the corner positions well.

                Perhaps someone who is an expert on Joe Jackson can explain to me why a guy who was an OUTSTANDING defensive right fielder would slide over to left...and then proceed to completely and utterly SUCK in a less demanding position for the remainder of his career...man...a full season in 1919 and he wound up submarginal defensively...despite his hitting just PEAKING.

                Henderson rates as the best full time left fielder (defensively) of all time for a good reason. When he played CF he showed he could hack it there which means he could certainly hack it in left.

                A note...Stan Musial raates as overall a better fielder than Henderson as you'll see...that is a product of brilliant managing and the kinds of funny things that can happen when you have his kind of multi-position career more than his raw ability out-shining Rickey's. The three players' Defensive GI lines:
                Code:
                First	Last    	HOF	Rank	PsEqG	Career	Rate	Mastery	TOTAL	Ps
                Stan	Musial  	Y	1	951	40.11	31.41	62.06	133.58	LF
                Rickey	Henderson	A	2	2245	47.98	39.35	40.19	127.52	LF
                Joe	Jackson 	N	45	590	18.00	27.17	22.39	67.56	LF

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SABR Matt
                  Perhaps someone who is an expert on Joe Jackson can explain to me why a guy who was an OUTSTANDING defensive right fielder would slide over to left...and then proceed to completely and utterly SUCK in a less demanding position for the remainder of his career...man...a full season in 1919 and he wound up submarginal defensively...despite his hitting just PEAKING.
                  I'm no expert on Jackson, but when he was traded to the Sox from Cleveland, Shano Collins was the established right fielder. Jackson started his first two games with the Sox (doubleheader) in left and never went back to right; even after Collins was done, Leibold took over in right. Who knows what the deal is there. Its worth noting Matt, only because I now know your system doesn't factor it in...that Comiskey was over 360 feet to both right and left down the lines. However when Jackson was playing right field in Cleveland's League park, right field was only 290 while left was a whopping 385.

                  ok...here's one.

                  Every position, including pitchers. Just defense. The top 10 or 15 single seasons of all time in each.
                  "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                  ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                    I'm no expert on Jackson, but when he was traded to the Sox from Cleveland, Shano Collins was the established right fielder. Jackson started his first two games with the Sox (doubleheader) in left and never went back to right; even after Collins was done, Leibold took over in right. Who knows what the deal is there. Its worth noting Matt, only because I now know your system doesn't factor it in...that Comiskey was over 360 feet to both right and left down the lines. However when Jackson was playing right field in Cleveland's League park, right field was only 290 while left was a whopping 385.

                    ok...here's one.

                    Every position, including pitchers. Just defense. The top 10 or 15 single seasons of all time in each.

                    --Perhaps the tiny RF in Cleveland was the maximum amount of territory Jackson could successfully cover. Shoeless Joe had somewhat of a Manny Ramierez reputation (on a smaller scale) in the field. He had the ability to be good out there, but didn't always pay attention or hustle.

                    Comment


                    • Pitchers have a bias toward the deadball era (more bunts, more weak grounders...even though I adjusted to fix every season such that the standard deviation and mean win scoring rates were the same, the best careers and single seasons among the pitchers still tend to bias toward the deadball era...I'm aware of that bias, and it's worth noting and looking for ways to fix ITF.

                      The other positiosn don't show that kind of bias however, so let's take a look:
                      Code:
                      First Base
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      1B	4.10	1980	Keith Hernandez
                      1B	4.08	1999	John Olerud
                      1B	3.98	2004	Todd Helton
                      1B	3.94	1988	Pete O'Brien
                      1B	3.86	1989	Will Clark
                      1B	3.83	1976    George Scott
                      1B	3.75	2001	Todd Helton
                      1B	3.72	1974	Steve Garvey
                      1B	3.67	1921	Charlie Grimm
                      1B	3.66	1985	Keith Hernandez
                      1B	3.66	1968	Don Clendenon
                      1B	3.63	1915	Ed Konetchy
                      1B	3.57	1979	Keith Hernandez
                      1B	3.53	1992	Mark Grave
                      1B	3.51	1965	Wes Parker
                      1B	3.50	1975	Steve Garvey
                      1B	3.50	1976	Steve Garvey
                      1B	3.48	1984	Pete O'Brien
                      1B	3.46	1922	George Kelly
                      1B	3.43	1940    Frank McCormick
                      1B	3.41	1993	Wally Joyner
                      1B	3.39	1930	Bill Terry
                      1B	3.38	1997	Jeff King
                      1B	3.38	1936	Buddy Hassett
                      1B	3.38	1999	Tino Martinez
                      
                      Second Base
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      2B	7.26	1973	Bobby Grich
                      2B	6.77	1975	Bobby Grich
                      2B	6.66	1999	Pokey Reese
                      2B	6.44	1908	Nap Lajoie
                      2B	6.32	1898	Bobby Lowe
                      2B	6.29	1910	Eddie Collins
                      2B	6.26	2000	Pokey Reese
                      2B	6.17	1966	Bill Mazeroski
                      2B	6.17	1962	Bill Mazeroski
                      2B	6.10	1927	Frankie Frisch
                      2B	6.08	1989	Jose Oquendo
                      2B	6.07	1971	Tommy Helms
                      2B	5.97	1944	Snuffy Stirnweiss
                      2B	5.90	1996	Eric Young
                      2B	5.87	1946	Bobby Doerr
                      2B	5.83	1985	Glenn Hubbard
                      2B	5.82	1916	Del Pratt
                      2B	5.81	1936	Billy Herman
                      2B	5.81	1940	Lonnie Frey
                      2B	5.79	1907	Johnny Evers
                      2B	5.70	1957	Nellie Fox
                      2B	5.67	1993	Mark Lemke
                      2B	5.65	1987	Frank White
                      2B	5.64	1988	Frank White
                      2B	5.64	1915	George Cutshaw
                      
                      Third Base
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      3B	4.75	1976	Greg Nettles
                      3B	4.75	1974	Darrell Evans
                      3B	4.73	1971	Greg Nettles
                      3B	4.60	1968	Brooks Robinson
                      3B	4.48	1983	Buddy Bell
                      3B	4.45	1967	Ron Santo
                      3B	4.41	1989	Terry Pendleton
                      3B	4.40	1988	Tim Wallach
                      3B	4.38	1996	Vinny Castilla
                      3B	4.28	1984	Tim Wallach
                      3B	4.26	1986	Terry Pentleton
                      3B	4.25	1998	John Valentin
                      3B	4.25	1999	Robin Ventura
                      3B	4.17	1898	Jimmy Collins
                      3B	4.13	1988	Kelly Gruber
                      3B	4.11	1925	Pie Traynor
                      3B	4.05	1962	Ken Boyer
                      3B	4.03	1963	Clete Boyer
                      3B	4.01	1904	Tommy Leach
                      3B	4.00	1998	Scott Rolen
                      3B	3.98	1984	Gary Gaetti
                      3B	3.96	1969	Brooks Robinson
                      3B	3.95	2004	Scott Rolen
                      3B	3.95	1939	Ken Keltner
                      3B	3.94	1916	Ossie Vitt
                      
                      Shortstop
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      SS	7.45	2000	Neifi Perez
                      SS	6.52	1999	Mike Bordick
                      SS	6.11	1985	Tony Fernandez
                      SS	6.04	1921	Everett Scott
                      SS	6.03	1922	Dave Bancroft
                      SS	6.02	1982	Ozzie Smith
                      SS	5.91	1930	Joe Cronin
                      SS	5.90	1973	Mark Belanger
                      SS	5.81	2001	Alex Gonzalez
                      SS	5.80	1976	Mark Belanger
                      SS	5.79	2004	Bobby Crosby
                      SS	5.76	1975	Mark Belanger
                      SS	5.75	1924	Glenn Wright
                      SS	5.74	1939	Frankie Crosetti
                      SS	5.69	1935	Luke Appling
                      SS	5.67	1988	Ozzie Smith
                      SS	5.66	1954	Chico Carrasquel
                      SS	5.63	1914	Rabbit Maranville
                      SS	5.62	1926	Joe Sewell
                      SS	5.62	1970	Ed Brinkman
                      SS	5.57	1962	Zoilo Versalles
                      SS	5.56	1987	Ozzie Smith
                      SS	5.55	1895	Hughie Jennings
                      SS	5.55	1931	Joe Cronin
                      SS	5.54	1990	Barry Larkin
                      
                      Left Field
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      LF	5.18	1980	Rickey Henderson
                      LF	4.71	1996	Bernard Gilkey
                      LF	4.58	1932	Joe Vosmik
                      LF	4.52	1978	Warren Cromartie
                      LF	4.47	1993	Luis Gonzalez
                      LF	4.43	1980	Jose Cruz Sr.
                      LF	4.38	1924	Goose Goslin
                      LF	4.30	1988	Kirk Gibson
                      LF	4.30	1909	Fred Clarke
                      LF	4.30	1962	Rocky Colavito
                      LF	4.26	1886	Tip O'Niel
                      LF	4.26	1927	Bibb Falk
                      LF	4.19	2002	Jacque Jones
                      LF	4.15	2000	Geoff Jenkins
                      LF	4.15	1902	Jesse Burkett
                      LF	4.11	1908	Matty McIntyre
                      LF	4.08	1911	Jimmie Sheckard
                      LF	4.06	1971	Ralph Garr
                      LF	4.05	1929	Al Simmons
                      LF	4.02	1914	Zach Wheat
                      LF	3.95	1991	Greg Vaughn
                      LF	3.86	1979	Warren Cromartie
                      LF	3.84	1905	Sherry Magee
                      LF	3.83	2003	Garret Anderson
                      LF	3.83	1951	Gil Coan
                      
                      Center Field
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      CF	8.36	2001	Andruw Jones
                      CF	8.08	1998	Andruw Jones (!)
                      CF	7.95	1999	Andruw Jones (!!)
                      CF	7.69	2000	Andruw Jones (!!!)
                      CF	7.65	1969	Paul Blair
                      CF	7.38	2003	Mike Cameron
                      CF	7.32	1980	Dwight Murphy
                      CF	7.20	1969	Curt Flood
                      CF	7.02	2002	Darren Erstad
                      CF	6.92	1991	Devon White
                      CF	6.86	1977	Chet Lemon
                      CF	6.68	1892	Jimmy McAleer
                      CF	6.67	1993	Lance Johnson
                      CF	6.63	1936	Doc Cramer
                      CF	6.55	1928	Taylor Douthit
                      CF	6.53	1989	Devon White
                      CF	6.47	1914	Tris Speaker
                      CF	6.45	2004	Andruw Jones
                      CF	6.39	1980	Omar Moreno
                      CF	6.38	1984	Kevin McReynolds
                      CF	6.28	1951	Richie Ashburn
                      CF	6.22	1975	Cesar Geronimo
                      CF	6.20	1915	Tris Speaker
                      CF	6.19	1929    Lloyd Waner
                      CF	6.19	1912	Tris Speaker
                      
                      Right Fielders
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      RF	6.43	1977	Dave Parker
                      RF	5.77	1985	Jesse Barfield
                      RF	5.74	1999	Jermaine Dye
                      RF	5.69	2003	Jose Cruz Jr.
                      RF	5.61	2001	Brian Jordan
                      RF	5.27	1987	Glen Wilson
                      RF	5.14	1963	Johnny Callison
                      RF	5.04	1964	Johnny Callison
                      RF	5.03	1915	Harry Hooper
                      RF	5.01	1984	Tony Gwynn
                      RF	5.01	1907	Ty Cobb
                      RF	4.98	1990	Sammy Sosa
                      RF	4.94	1993	Tim Salmon
                      RF	4.93	1895	Wee Willie Keeler
                      RF	4.84	1966	Roberto Clemente
                      RF	4.83	1958	Al Kaline
                      RF	4.78	1963	Bob Allison
                      RF	4.76	1965	Tony Oliva
                      RF	4.70	2004	Jacque Jones
                      RF	4.70	1914	Chief Wilson
                      RF	4.70	1988	Dale Murphy
                      RF	4.69	1969	Tony Oliva
                      RF	4.66	1958	Roberto Clemente
                      RF	4.63	1911	Chief Wilson
                      RF	4.63	1973	Rusty Staub
                      
                      Catcher
                      Ps	Wins	Yr	PlayerID
                      C	4.81	2000	Brad Ausmus
                      C	4.70	1982	Gary Carter
                      C	4.59	1996	Ivan Rodriguez
                      C	4.41	1983	Gary Carter
                      C	4.39	1985	Tony Pena
                      C	4.34	1977	Jim Sundberg
                      C	4.30	1980	Gary Carter
                      C	4.26	1993	Rick Wilkins
                      C	4.21	1999	Ivan Rodriguez
                      C	4.14	1984	Tony Pena
                      C	4.12	1971	Manny Sanguillen
                      C	4.12	1998	Ivan Rodriguez
                      C	4.11	1975	Thurman Munson
                      C	3.96	1997	Ivan Rodriguez
                      C	3.90	2000	Mike Matheny
                      C	3.85	1982	Bob Boone
                      C	3.84	1993	Ron Karkovice
                      C	3.81	1995	Ivan Rodriguez
                      C	3.78	1990	Lance Parrish
                      C	3.74	1973	Thurman Munson
                      C	3.69	1979	Gary Carter
                      C	3.66	1943	Ray Mueller
                      C	3.63	1970	Thurman Munson
                      C	3.61	1932	Mickey Cochrane
                      C	3.59	1992	Ivan Rodriguez
                      Pitching win seasons will be biased not only because of the environment in which they occur, no matter how much I try to correct for that...but because when you play more, you get more fielding wins. I'll present PCA-BA leaders with at least 20 PRGs if you're really interested despite the above caveats.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by leecemark
                        --Perhaps the tiny RF in Cleveland was the maximum amount of territory Jackson could successfully cover. Shoeless Joe had somewhat of a Manny Ramierez reputation (on a smaller scale) in the field. He had the ability to be good out there, but didn't always pay attention or hustle.
                        Ah...see thanks Sultan/Mark...that's the kind of insight I was looking for...didn't check the dimensions of Cleveland's RF vs Chicago's LF...that does explain it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SABR Matt
                          Perhaps someone who is an expert on Joe Jackson can explain to me why a guy who was an OUTSTANDING defensive right fielder would slide over to left...and then proceed to completely and utterly SUCK in a less demanding position for the remainder of his career...man...a full season in 1919 and he wound up submarginal defensively...despite his hitting just PEAKING.
                          Here's another possibility. In his Grand Jury testimony, when he was asked if he was satisfied with his salary, he replied to this effect.

                          "When that's all you could get from them. I was lucky to get that contract, because I had been injured."

                          I have looked constantly on Proquest to find any mention of an injury, which prompted Cleveland to deal him to Comiskey, but have not found anything so far.

                          So, it's possible that he sustained an injury which hampered his running defensively.

                          Bill

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SABR Matt
                            Center Field
                            Ps Wins Yr PlayerID
                            CF 8.36 2001 Andruw Jones
                            CF 8.08 1998 Andruw Jones (!)
                            CF 7.95 1999 Andruw Jones (!!)
                            CF 7.69 2000 Andruw Jones (!!!)
                            Wowsers. Imagine what he'd do with a great work ethic. He's basically coasted on natural ability to this point. If he wants the second half of his career to come close to resembling the first, I think he's going to have to change a few things. Losing 25 pounds wouldn't hurt. But that might mean sacrificing some power and Andruw probably ain't cool with dat.

                            Something that jumped out was Gary Carter...I watched him play a lot and never thought of him as a defensive genius. In what specific area does Carter excel?

                            Could you post his defensive career along-side Bench's? Thanks.
                            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SABR Matt
                              One at a time:
                              Jimmie Foxx
                              In his prime he was absolutely the best fielding third baseman of the early 30s.

                              Did you mean 1st base here for Foxx?
                              "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                              "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

                              Comment


                              • Also Matt may I see the defensive careers of:

                                Roberto Alomar
                                Jim Thome
                                Jorge Posada
                                Derek Jeter
                                Omar Vizquel
                                Ichiro
                                Albert Belle

                                and offensive careers of:

                                Roberto Alomar
                                Jim Thome
                                Jorge Posada
                                Derek Jeter
                                Juan Gonzalez
                                Albert Belle

                                thanks
                                "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                                "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

                                Comment

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