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  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    good info thanks tony

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by bkmckenna
    good info on 19th century classification concerning salary limits but was there actually a governing body or various other mechanisms in place to develop a universal classification system, for example:

    if salary limits were haphazard, is that a reliable method?
    how did things change on a yearly basis from 1877-1902?

    i think it would be great to classify the leagues as such but can it be done through much of the 19th century

    to my knowledge there is no set classification listings of minor leagues throughout the 19th century - you're stating it as a fact - would love to see a future work that helps establish the tiers

    is this your system of rating minor leagues or is there actually a universally accepted classification system?

    thanks for bringing the notion to my attention - hadn't been considering it
    BK: I'll try to address your questions with what I know and maybe someone else has more info. There was a governing body for the minors and they followed the spirit of capitalism. As a player got better and advanced up the ladder from low minors (Classes C through F) to high minors (Classes A and B), he deserved to be paid a higher salary. Minor league teams usually had 12 players around the late 1800's and the best leagues paid the highest monthly team salaries. A Class C league might only have a team salary limit of $700 for 12 players so most of the team earned $60 per month. Leagues actually decided what class they wanted to be in based on what the towns could afford to spend.

    The first year I have with a classification is 1888 with the Southern League being a Class B league. Researchers know of another 75 minor leagues from 1889 to 1899 that were operating as Class A to Class F leagues. I believe the NA President Nick Young had to approve the leagues and they paid a league fee to the NA. Remember that the leagues and their teams were run as businesses with some of them incorporating and having a Board of Directors.

    One league I am familiar with is the NY State League. It was a Class C league in 1898, and it's leaders voted in 1899 to move up to Class B to try and lure players away from the Class A Eastern League. The NYSL succeeded and it's pennant winner, Rome, defeated the Eastern League's winner in a series after the season ended. This defeat embarrassed the larger league.

    If you are interested in this history then look at old Sp. News or Sp. Life's or local newspapers, and you will soon see in the spring what the salary limits were etc. As I said before, it was not unusual for a rabid fan with large pockets (a businessman or a doctor, for example) to pay the $150 monthly salary of a star pitcher for the good of the team. Of course his contract might say he was only earning $50 from the team so they stayed under the limit. Some minor league pitchers even made more than ML pitchers so they had little incentive to switch clubs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank_reilly
    replied
    minor leagues before 1910

    thanks Tony for the info

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    good info on 19th century classification concerning salary limits but was there actually a governing body or various other mechanisms in place to develop a universal classification system, for example:

    if salary limits were haphazard, is that a reliable method?
    how did things change on a yearly basis from 1877-1902?

    i think it would be great to classify the leagues as such but can it be done through much of the 19th century

    to my knowledge there is no set classification listings of minor leagues throughout the 19th century - you're stating it as a fact - would love to see a future work that helps establish the tiers

    is this your system of rating minor leagues or is there actually a universally accepted classification system?

    thanks for bringing the notion to my attention - hadn't been considering it

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank_reilly
    thanks tony for the info but do you know what cities played in those Leagues
    Frank,

    The towns in the 1886 Central NY League 6/8 to 9/11 were:

    Canastota
    Little Falls
    Norwich
    Oneida
    Frankfort ( disbanded after 2 games)

    The towns in the 1888 Central NY League 6/31 to 9/15 were:

    Auburn
    Canandaigua
    Penn Yan
    Seneca Falls
    Waterloo

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank_reilly
    Classification started in 1902:atthepc
    One of the misconceptions is Minor League Baseball didn't officially begin until 1902 or 1903 when the National Association was ratified to help protect minor league teams from being raided by the major leagues.

    Classifications had been around well before that year. The 1897 Central PA League was a Class F League. The 1897 NY State League, for example, was a Class C League. Classes in the 19th Century began with Class A, usually the Eastern and Western Leagues, and moved down to Class F. There was no central governing body so chaos was the norm.

    The main difference was the Team Salary Limit that was published in the Sporting News and Sporting Life. It was thought if the limit was $1,500 per month per team, then your league would have better players than a league with a team salary limit of only $1,000. Of course most teams ignored their limit by paying their top pitchers under the table. Newspapers were filled with indignant reporters complaints that their rivals were spending more than their limit to get better players.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank_reilly
    replied
    minor leagues before 1910

    Classification started in 1902:atthepc

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    when did classifications start? - i thought it wasn't until the early 20th century and that was from A to D

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    The 1897 Central PA League did play from 5/15 to 9/16. It was a Class F League and it's teams were from Williamsport, Lock Haven, Milton, Sunbury, Shamokin, Pottsville, and Bloomsburg.

    There also was an 1896 Central PA League but I do not know much about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank_reilly
    yes the was a Empire State league based in Georgia and it played in 1913, the other Empire Baseball league (which I am looking for what cities played in this league) played in NY from 1905 to 1908.
    Over the weekend I'll find my notes at home on the 1886 Central NY, 1888 Central NY, and the 1905-08 Empire State League. Note that there were two Empire State Leagues in the US and a third league with a similar name. I am not sure what the other states were thinking since NY's nickname is the Empire State.

    One of the Central NY Leagues had a total population in all of it's towns of only 31,000 I believe! Yet they supported the weekday games and Saturday games. It was common for fans to wait at the train station for their team to return from a big game. A band would play, fireworks might go off, and the team, the band, and the fans would march down the streets late at night singing and celebrating. They sure loved their teams back then!

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank_reilly
    replied
    minor legues before 1910

    yes the was a Empire State league based in Georgia and it played in 1913, the other Empire Baseball league (which I am looking for what cities played in this league) played in NY from 1905 to 1908.

    Leave a comment:


  • leshii
    replied
    Originally posted by TonyK
    The 1888 Central NY League played and the 1888 NY State League did not. The Empire State League in NY played from 1905 to 1908, but don't confuse it with the Empire League from a different state.

    Hope that helps you!
    I could be wrong, but I thought the Empire State League was a Georgia-based in league in the early 1910s.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank_reilly
    replied
    Minor Leagues before 1910

    thanks tony for the info but do you know what cities played in those Leagues

    Leave a comment:


  • TonyK
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank_reilly
    to billyed

    thanks but Carlos didnt list too many leagues that played before 1910. also what teams played in the Intermountain league (1902).

    to all others

    here is the list of leagues i have that would like to know if they played or not. if played or not would like to know or comfirm what teams played in theses leagues. they are

    Arkansas State leagues - 1897
    Canadian League - 1886 and 1896 to 1897
    Central New Jersey League - 1892
    Central New York League -1888
    Central Pennsuylvania Leagues - 1896 to 1898
    Connecticut State League - 1884 to 1885
    Colorado State League - 1885 to 1899
    Central League - 1897
    Eastern Association - 1881 (found information that this league played but with what cities played)
    Eastern International League -1888, 1895
    Eastern Iowa League - 1895
    Hudson River League - 1888
    Illinois-Iowa League - 1890 to 1892
    Indiana State League - 1888 to 1900
    Interstate League - 1885
    Maine State League - 1897
    Massachusetts State league - 1885
    Kansas State League - 1887 to 1895
    Kentucky-Indiana League - 1896
    Middle States League - 1889
    Montana State League - 1892 to 1920's
    Naugatuck Valley League - 1898
    Nebraksa State League - 1892
    New Brunswick League - 1890
    New Jersey State League - 1892
    New England Inter-state - 1888
    New Hampshire State League - 1886
    Northeastern League - 1887
    Northwest League - 1879 to 1891 (found information that this leauge played but need what cities played)
    Ohio-Michigan League - 1893
    Ohio State League - 1884
    Ohio-West Virginia league - 1897
    Pacific Interstate League - 1891
    Pacific States Legaue - 1898
    Pennsylvania State Association - 1886 to 1887
    Pennsylvania State League - 1890, 1902, 1916
    Southern Negro League - 1920
    Upper Peninsula League - 1890 to 1895
    Virginia League - 1885 to 1886
    Western Inter-State League - 1890, 1895
    here are a few more leagues

    Alabama- Mississippi League - 1936
    Anthracite League - 1928
    Arkansas - Texas League 1905
    Atlantic League - 1907 to 1908
    Black Hills League - 1891 to 1892
    Cumberland Valley League - 1895 to 1896
    Empire League 1905 to 1908
    ILIP (All black League) unknown date
    Indiana-Illinois League - 1899, 1899
    Indiana-Ohio League - 1907
    Iowa State League - 1912
    Midwest League - 1891
    Mountain League - 1887
    New England League - 1877 to 1878 (found information that this league played, just need what cities played)
    New Hampshire League - 1907
    New York State League - 1888
    New Pacific League - 1898
    Northern Maine League - 1909
    Northern Michigan League - 1909
    Northern New York League - 1902
    Old Dominion League - 1930
    Pacfic National League - 1905
    Ohio Valley League - 1891
    Pennsylvania - West Virginia League - 1914
    Southern New Hampshire League - 1907
    Tennessee -Alabama League - 1907
    Vermont State League - 1907
    West Arkansas League - 1924
    Western League - 1889
    West Texas League - 1905

    thanks for any information on these Leagues






    :atthepc
    The 1888 Central NY League played and the 1888 NY State League did not. The Empire State League in NY played from 1905 to 1908, but don't confuse it with the Empire League from a different state.

    Hope that helps you!

    Leave a comment:


  • billyed
    replied
    Pre 1910 Leagues

    Hi Frank:

    The Intermountain League of 1901 and 1902 (sometimes referred to as the Utah State League) consisted of these teams -

    1901: Ogden, Salt Lake, Park City, and Railway-Lagoon (this team played near Salt Lake).

    1902: Ogden, Salt Lake, Lagoon, and Logan.

    Carlos has published my record of the 1901 season and it can be found on his site.

    As for the other leagues you've asked about - I saw quite a number of those leagues listed by Carlos. I count 8 pages and approximately 300 leagues in the list prior to 1910. It's true that Carlos himself did not compile all the leagues he has cited, but each citation also includes the author/compiler's name.

    :atthepc

    Leave a comment:

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