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  • #31
    Well that is not an unreasonable view at this point as there is still a lot more data gathering to take place. The quality of oppostion will always be a question mark for any of the Negro Leaguers and I think the most important thing is to boil down all of the data and emerge with the cream of the talent. Newspapers reports say that Jackman had three seasons of 50+ victories but the best seasons I have for him have but 15-20 victories. If there truely are seasons of 50+ wins then I would hope to find at least ten of those victories against top-notch oppositiion; meaning teams made up of recognizable major and negro league names. If his currently documented 21-3 record against major league pitchers grows to four or five times that amount with the same winning percentage then baseball historians will be forced to consider Jackman among the elite. Until then much of his fame remains speculative, and at this point I am simple not ready to release all of my better boxscores and other pertinent data.

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    • #32
      Plenty fair enough....I wouldn't expect you to release you hard work before its ready.

      Much of what I can fin regarding Jackman sees him as sort of a hired gun....like the slugger brought in as a ringer at a softball tournament. He certainly deserves some major credit for helping innovate the act that made Ole' Satch famous though.

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      • #33
        Jackman wasn't any more a hired gun then any other Negro League hurler. His base of operations team was the Philadelphia Giants and though they were not in the "Negro League," they played the recognizable teams like Hilldale, Pennsylvania Red Caps, Cuban Stars, Pop Lloyd's Lincoln Giants, Boston Tigers and the Providence Giants. The Philly Giants also appeared in NYC under the name of the Quaker Giants. All of these teams were made up of recognizable and legitimate Negro League name players. Jackman worked with and against the biggest names in the Negro Leagues. He was a teamate of Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Hank Greenberg, etc. While in New England the Giants faced intact minor league squads and major league teams that played exhibiton games on Sundays when major leagues games could not be held in Boston. People like John McGraw and Jesse Burkett were openly complimentary with their praise of Jackman, as were dozens and dozens of major league players. Most of the various "official" Negro League schedules at Jackman's peak were often only 30-40 games and the other 80-100 games they played - and the teams that guys like Paige and Williams faced - were the same caliber semipro squads that guys like Jackman faced. Jackman was a ringer or hired gun only in the same sense as guys like Paige, Williams, Dick Redding, etc. - they all played for the highest bidders in and around their Negro League starts. The all worked at times against top notch competition and at times against weak competition.


        You're not going to find anything on Jackman on the internet that hasn't been put there by the same two or three people who have been researching his career.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by WJackman
          You're not going to find anything on Jackman on the internet that hasn't been put there by the same two or three people who have been researching his career.
          Very true....definately hit the brick wall there.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 538280
            That's supposed to be only in Negro League competition. That clearly has him being better than Shades of Glory does. It seems like there's a difference with some Negro League stats out there.
            Holway's book has a lot of valuable information but as I read his book I noted a lot of math errors/typos/inaccuracies. For instance on page 476 of his book he lists SJ Williams with a record of 107-57 between 1910-1932. Then on the very next page he lists him with a record of 125-56 for the same time period.

            I also found that his records for some games were inaccurate. His account of the games between Bob Feller and Satchel Paige differed from the account listed in a recent book I have about Bob Feller called Ace of his Generation. So I looked on ProQuest to verify which one was accurate and Holway's account was inaccurate on many of the games. I also found one of his accounts of a game between Rube Marquard and SJ Williams to be inaccurate. He lists the game as a tie whereas I found the game on ProQuest and Marquard won 3-0. His book is great but it made me question some of the data a little bit.
            "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

            Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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            • #36
              Not that I am answering for Holway but let me talk about my Jackman database in which I have nearly 300 boxscores. Most of the boxscores are complete but some lack certain things like strikeouts, walks, hits allowed. Sometimes I will be reading one newspaper and there will be a mention like "last Tuesday Jackman fanned 13 in a game in Worcester." Now there is nothing more than that, not even a win or loss. So this of course goes into the database with hopes that I will eventually run across the game when I get to the Worcester paper. Lots of stuff like this pops up when compliling Negro League, minor league or semipro stuff. This is not an exact science like looking something up on retrosheet. I have even run across a game in a town that has two newspapers. One will say 13 strikeouts and the other might say 15. This also happens in major league games, especially when a town like Boston circa 1920 had seven or eight dalies.

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              • #37
                Wikipedia: The Encyclopedia of the INTERNET

                wikipedia article below

                Joseph Williams (April 6, 1886 - February 25, 1951), nicknamed "Cyclone Joe" or "Smokey Joe", was an American right-handed pitcher in the Negro Leagues. He is widely recognized as one of the game's greatest pitchers, even though he never played a game in the major leagues.

                Williams was born in Seguin, Texas; one of his parents was African American and the other was a Comanche Indian. He grew up to become an outstanding baseball pitcher, but as his path to the major leagues was barred by the color line; Williams spent his entire 27-year career (1905-32) pitching in the Negro Leagues, Mexico, and the Caribbean.

                He entered professional baseball in 1905 with the San Antonio Black Bronchos, and was an immediate star, posting records of 28-4, 15-9, 20-8, 20-2 and 32-8. After that, the Chicago Leland Giants, a team higher in the pecking order of black baseball, acquired him. In 1910, the Giants owner Frank Leland pronounced him the best pitcher in baseball, in any league.

                In 1911, Williams joined the Lincoln Giants of New York, helping that club become one of the premier African-American teams of the era. When manager John Henry Lloyd departed in 1914, Williams took over as playing manager, a post he held through the 1923 season. After the Lincolns finished an ignominious fifth (out of six teams) in the Eastern Colored League's inaugural season, Williams was released in the spring of 1924. He joined the Brooklyn Royal Giants for a season, then signed with the independent Homestead Grays, where, except for a brief turn with the Detroit Wolves in 1932, he spent the rest of his career in top-level black baseball. Records are sketchy, but in 1914, Williams was credited with winning a total of 41 games against just three losses. In 1929, playing for the Grays in the American Negro League at the age of 43, Williams won 12 games and lost seven.

                Although barred from the major leagues, Williams pitched many games against major-league stars in post-season barnstorming exhibitions. He proved to be as tough against them as he was against the Negro Leaguers, posting a 20-7 record in these games. Three different times, he faced the eventual National League champions. He won two of those games and lost the third, 1-0 to the 1917 New York Giants despite throwing a no-hitter.

                On August 7, 1930, at age 44, he struck out 27 Kansas City Monarchs in a 1-0, 12-inning victory. That same year, he beat a younger Negro League star who was just bursting into superstardom, Leroy (Satchel) Paige, also by 1-0, in their only meeting against one another. Williams retired from baseball two years later. There was a "Smokey Joe Williams Day" at the Polo Grounds in 1950. He died at age 64 in New York City.

                Considerable debate existed and still exists over whether Williams or Paige was the greatest of the Negro League pitchers. Most modern sources lean toward Paige, but in 1952, a poll taken by the Pittsburgh Courier named Williams the greatest pitcher in Negro League history.

                While he has become more commonly known as "Smokey Joe," during Williams's prime in the 1910s and early 1920s he was universally known as "Cyclone" or "Cyclone Joe," sometimes appearing in box scores simply as "Cyclone."

                In 1999, after extensive research on the early years of black baseball revealed his outstanding record, Williams was selected for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

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                • #38
                  I have been researching the life of Joe Williams for some time. Through deed records I located his childhood home in Seguin, Texas. The home was built in the 1890s, when Joe was a youngster, on property purchased by grandfather Calvin Williams in 1878. The house partially burned in the 1990s. It now sits empty, across the street from Seguin's historic Second Baptist Church, which the Williams family attended. I thought you might enjoy seeing it. You are welcome to look at some of my research at http://cyclonejoe.blogspot.com/
                  Attached Files

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                  • #39
                    Mark - Welcome to the site. I learned so much about Smokey Joe from your blog and the pictures are fantastic. I did not realize that Joe's granddad was in the Civil War. It sounds like his grandfather had quite an extraordinary life.

                    I look forward to learning more about Smokey Joe from your research.

                    Eric
                    "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                    Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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                    • #40
                      Mark - please maintain your interest in this site. Your participation is welcomed. Thanks.

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                      • #41
                        It's a shame that I just returned to the library (jumped through hoops of interlibrary loan to get it) Bill McNeil's new book on Negro League players playing in winter. I can't remember the exact title at this moment. Anyway, it has the first real work I've seen on the Florida Hotel league, and Joe Williams was the dominant man who worked that league. If you're into Joe Williams info, that chapter is quite useful.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                        • #42
                          That is a good book -- I was lucky enough to find it under the Christmas tree this year. It's called Black Baseball Out Of Season: Pay for Play Outside the Negro Leagues.

                          Here is another photo I thought you would enjoy. It is of Joe's wife Beatrice, probably taken in the 1920s. It was provided by a neice of Breatrice, who currently lives in D.C.
                          Attached Files

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                          • #43
                            Here's a picture of Smokey Joe from John Holway's "Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues".

                            Joe looks like an imposing figure from this picture. At 6'5" he must have been like facing JR Richard for the players of his time.
                            Attached Files
                            "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                            Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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                            • #44
                              Williams may very well be the greatest Negro league pitcher ever, even ahead of Paige.
                              Chop! Chop! Chop!

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                              • #45
                                After 7 years of research on black baseball in North east Indiana. One of the many ahh ha moments is finding Smokey Joe Williams playing for the Fort Wayne Colored Pirates in 1928

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