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  • #16
    I think a lot of the best of them did. Where else could a man of color make those kind of wages in the Americas? If you look at the careers of most of the best, they wintered in Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico or the California Winter League. There was also a "league" among resort hotels in Florida during the winter, but I haven't seen much documentation of this yet.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    • #17
      I didn't know that the California Winter league (Pacific Coast League) allowed blacks to play. I thought they were segregated. I know that Cobb, Hornsby, Ruth played there, as player/managers a little in the 1920's.

      Sam Crawford also played there from 1916-21, after his ML career ended.

      Bill Burgess

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      • #18
        The California Winter League wasn't the PCL. There's an interesting book on the league by William McNeil. In fact, the basic structure of the league was a strong all-Negro team and several white teams composed of major leaguers and PCL types. The black team played more often, but often won the league because the white teams' talent was a little more disbursed around the league.

        Jim Albright
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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        • #19
          Thank you, Jim, for clarifying that point. I learned something new today. I like that. Thanks.

          Bill
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-04-2006, 04:48 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by [email protected]
            I believe I have read of some Negro Leaguers who played virtually all year round. Went to Cuba, Mexico. Don't know if many did it, but I read that some black ballplayers did play virtually year round.

            Anyone else hear anything like that?

            Bill Burgess

            I did Bill. Don't recall the titles of the books but a while back I saw a number of books dealing with black baseball speak of many black players playing winter ball in Cuba and Mexico.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by [email protected]
              Thank you, Jim, for clarifying that point. I learned something new today. I like that. Thanks.

              Bill
              Glad to be of service.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by blackout805
                Josh was still playing catcher up to the end of his career, his durability at the position is very unique considering the fact he was still winning batting average titles in 1945
                where did he win that title in 1945?

                in the negro national league he hit .323 - .107 points behind leader - he won the hr title with 11 - the season was only 45 games

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                • #23
                  Gibson, definately. What didn't he have like 932 home runs or something like that? Then he tragically died when he was 36. He could have hit 1,000 home runs if he stuck it out for a couple more years.
                  "It kills me to lose. If I'm a troublemaker, and I don't think that my temper makes me one, then it's because I can't stand losing. That's the way I am about winning, all I ever wanted to do was finish first."

                  -Jackie Robinson

                  55 and 56 chmps.... The two headed monster

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                  • #24
                    according to john holway's the complete book of baseball's negro leagues:

                    gibson hit 216 home runs 1931-46 in the negro national league and east-west lg

                    please explain the other 716

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bkmckenna
                      according to john holway's the complete book of baseball's negro leagues:

                      gibson hit 216 home runs 1931-46 in the negro national league and east-west lg

                      please explain the other 716
                      In recorded at-bats against big league pitching, Gibson batted .426. http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...ibson_josh.htm

                      Also - Satchel Paige, who was Gibson's teammate on the Pittsburgh Crawfords and later pitched for the Cleveland Indians, said, "He was the greatest hitter who ever lived." http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/class...ge=gibson_josh

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dontworry
                        In recorded at-bats against big league pitching, Gibson batted .426. http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...ibson_josh.htm

                        Also - Satchel Paige, who was Gibson's teammate on the Pittsburgh Crawfords and later pitched for the Cleveland Indians, said, "He was the greatest hitter who ever lived." http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/class...ge=gibson_josh
                        One man's biased opinion should never be taken as gospel.
                        And that still doesn't explain the other 716 home runs.
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                          One man's biased opinion should never be taken as gospel.
                          And that still doesn't explain the other 716 home runs.
                          " One man's biased opinion should never be taken as gospel. "

                          I'd figure you'd stoop down to that level, So i'll post a quote from walter johnson.

                          "He hits the ball a mile," Hall of Famer Walter Johnson, the Washington Senators pitcher who won 416 games, said of Gibson.

                          As Far as Gibson's stats go - Satchel Paige won the ROY at 43 and had several productive season throughout his 40s, which to me, is proof that the Negro leagues were every bit as competitive as the Majors.

                          Infact - The Negro Leagues were winning about 2/3's of the games with the MLB, according to a documentary I saw on the Negro Leagues, when the comissioner of MLB decided that such a thing wasn't right and banned anymore games between the Negro Leagues and MLB

                          So I think it's fair to assume that he would have completely dominant in Major League baseball. His stats are just silly.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dontworry
                            "
                            Infact - The Negro Leagues were winning about 2/3's of the games with the MLB, according to a documentary I saw on the Negro Leagues, when the comissioner of MLB decided that such a thing wasn't right and banned anymore games between the Negro Leagues and MLB

                            [B][BThats not much to go on. We have no idea of who represented MLB in those exhibition games. To be fair to the black players we do not know if they put their best starting nine on the field. I don't put much stock in exhibition games those won by white MLB or those won by blacks. Too small a sample and again we don't know who took the field in all those game, whites or blacks

                            Thats the silliest notion, that MLB stopped playing blacks in exhibition games because they were being beaten too often. What you heard in that documentary was never the official position of MLB.

                            Let me also say, I and I think most on this board are not saying that those blacks were not a good as some white MLB players. There had to be some blacks not as good as some whites, some as good and some better than a number of white players, how could it be any other way.[/B][/B]

                            So I think it's fair to assume that he would have completely dominant in Major League baseball. His stats are just silly.
                            A terrible shame, that MLB did not give some of the best ball players, or any black players their chance simply because of skin color, MLB lost out on that one, we all did.


                            B]Completely dominant, how can that statement by accepted. How can anyone say whith certainty what might have been, impossible, it never happened, no way to tell. For that matter many black players say that there were other black hitters who were better than Gibson. That he had the ablity, no doubt. That he probably would have been near the top, probably so, but to say he would have dominated how do you prove that.[/B]

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dontworry
                              " One man's biased opinion should never be taken as gospel. "

                              I'd figure you'd stoop down to that level, So i'll post a quote from walter johnson.

                              "He hits the ball a mile," Hall of Famer Walter Johnson, the Washington Senators pitcher who won 416 games, said of Gibson.

                              As Far as Gibson's stats go - Satchel Paige won the ROY at 43 and had several productive season throughout his 40s, which to me, is proof that the Negro leagues were every bit as competitive as the Majors.

                              Infact - The Negro Leagues were winning about 2/3's of the games with the MLB, according to a documentary I saw on the Negro Leagues, when the comissioner of MLB decided that such a thing wasn't right and banned anymore games between the Negro Leagues and MLB

                              So I think it's fair to assume that he would have completely dominant in Major League baseball. His stats are just silly.
                              The definition of the "major league" teams often consisted of a a few legit major leaguers and the rest minor leaguers. The top Negro League teams were competitive with major leaguers but the overall depth of talent wasn't nearly as strong as the major leagues. In many of those barnstorming games, position players for the major leaguers would pitch.

                              I agree with you that Satchel Paige was without a doubt one of the top 5 pitchers of all time.

                              I would rate Gibson as better than Piazza but I take Johnny Bench over both of them.
                              "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                              Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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                              • #30
                                Lets turn it around. We keep focusing as to how would Gibson do against MLB pitching. Try this one, what would Piazza do playing in negro leagues and hitting against black pitchers of long ago.

                                There seems to be the perception that some posters are not giving black players who were not given their shot their due. Thats not the truth, only saying that over all black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching.

                                Not to say white pitchers were superior. The fact that there was no money in black baseball to keep the best, there was very little scouting to search for good black pitchers. Lets put aside emotions and deal with the facts, not nice but those are the facts.

                                When we toss Gibson's numbers around consider the level of pitching he faced, some great ones but on a day to day basis not on the level of MLB.Imagine Piazza hit black pitching day to day.

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