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  • #31
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
    One man's biased opinion should never be taken as gospel.
    Satchel Paige faced Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio and still said that about Gibson, that counts for something

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    • #32
      [QUOTE=blackout805]
      I did see some stats a while back and saved them, I will search for them and post them. It was the batting averages of some who played in black baseball compared to how some did in white integrated minor league baseball and also compared to how they did in MLB.

      While these stas may have some flaws I think it's appearant that it shows that MLB and even minor league baseball had "over all" pitching that was on a higher level than black baseball.

      The flaws in those comparison..... the number of at bats that those blacks had in black baseball were much higher than they were in minor and MLB.

      Another flaw, that some of them were older when they finally got to play in minor and MLB. Some were not that much older when they did play integrated minor and MLB. Some names Junior Gilliam, Sam Jethro, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays and Elston Howard.

      Going on memory the a high percentage of the blacks on that list ( around 20 hitters) if my memory serves me right.. most of the blacks hit for lower averages in MLB and even in minor league baseball.

      The difference was significant, most hit for maybe 15 points lower in minor league baseball than they did in black baseball.

      The batting average difference in MLB, most hit for a combined batting average that was 20+ points lower in MLB than they hit in black baseball.

      Again that the way I recall it from memory, I will try to locate the actual figures and post them.

      That should always be considered when we bring up batting averages of blacks that were compiled in black baseball.

      Here is what I located, the difference between blacks batting averages was more than I stated above, I thought it was around 20 points but I was going on memory. These are the actual numbers. The total at bats and hits were computerized, calculated and this is what was projected, the batting average and average number of home runs based on a season of 550 at bats. These are the numbers and the comparison of some blacks, how they hit in black baseball compared to minor league baseball and how they hit in black baseball compared to integrated MLB

      -----------------------BA.------------Home runs
      Black baseball---------.336-------------12
      Minor Leagues---------.312-------------16



      --------------------Ba.-------------Home runs
      Black baseball------.332--------------13
      MLB----------------.281--------------18

      You can see they averaged more home runs but hit for a lower Ba. in the minors and MLB.

      There was a total of about 20 batters on that list. Some names, Jackie Robinson, junior Gilliam, Sandy Amoros, Roy Campanella, Sam Jetroe, Elston Howard, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso, Bob Boyd, Luke Easter, Willie Mays, Larry Doby and Ernie Banks.
      Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-12-2006, 09:51 PM.

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      • #33
        i don't think anyone is denying that josh gibson was indeed a great player but you just can't make up stats - if they are not available - they are not available - it's a shame but that is how it is - please don't make up numbers especially something like 900 homers (why was 900 selected? because of painfully researched data or because no one else has hit 900 homers?)

        if we just want to spit out numbers without any explanation attached to them then here is the greatest season in the history of the world (and these numbers are not made up) - In 1869 george wright scored 339 times with 49 home runs and a .629 batting average in a mere 57 games

        not to take anything away from the top-notch negro league teams but these contests against major league clubs are exhibitions - my understanding of exhibition is that major leaguers have always taken them less seriously than league play - they may play out of position - they play with men they've never met from the minors or such - they may add local talent to the club - on the sports/entertainment scale it slides towards entertainment - it was all post season - it was for extra cash - cash made easy - a good time - not the live and die of a pennant race

        another question: how many quotes have you ever read that said so-and-so was a terrible player? or a second rate player? or just a second tier player? - the wording people give in interviews is always glowing - that there is extremely biased and fails to represent a legitimate sample

        it's not going out on a limb to say that piazza faced better pitching day in and day out than anyone in the negro leagues - i personally have a lot of respect for negro league ball and enjoy reading about it - but i am also under no delusions - there were top-notch/great ballplayers in the negro leagues - some would have done okay in the majors some would have excelled - at no time though was the overall quality of play in the negro leagues of major league caliber - the game is all about pitching and mr. gibson just didn't consistently face the best pitching - and the shame of the story here is that he was barred from doing so because of something to do with pigmentation
        Last edited by Brian McKenna; 01-12-2006, 07:13 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by blackout805
          Satchel Paige faced Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio and still said that about Gibson, that counts for something
          It counts for a lot, but, it's still one man's opinion, and a biased one at that. It's like Tony Dungy saying Peyton Manning is the greatest player of all time.
          Uh-oh, shouldn't have stooped there.
          Last edited by Captain Cold Nose; 01-12-2006, 10:40 AM.
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          • #35
            the problem with first hand accounts is that they are so overwhelmingly positive and they are usually in hindsight with the ex-player far removed from his competitive days that things get romanticized

            take for instance a parent talking about his/her adult child - if a reporter came in and talked about that child, the parent is going to remember good stories and events and speak glowingly of the child - later in the day that same parent remembers the same good points but talks with his/her spouse (someone who was actually there when the child was reared) - and now they prod each other's memory and realize that the child wasn't perfect nor were they themselves - they acknowledge the child's flaws and their own (though this may not even be spoken) - the end result is people convey what they want to convey when they want to convey it and under what circumstances - hence, we all have an agenda and we have to realize this

            this is the same in baseball - take any event from history - read how it is summarized today - now jump on proquest and examine the actual details - and i mean the fine details of the event and results - you may/probably draw different conclusions in response - and i bet (almost guarantee) that things didn't actually occur as they have been so often repeated since and consequently believed as gospel today

            i have been researching a specific individual through old accounts recently - we already have preconceived ideas about past events and have heard stories over and over again - i can tell you flat out that so many stories are either grossly fabricated, wholly inaccurate, slightly inaccurate or moderately inaccurate - people, places, circumstances, the actual event and results are often just dead off

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
              Lets turn it around. We keep focusing as to how would Gibson do against MLB pitching. Try this one, what would Piazza do playing in negro leagues and hitting against black pitchers of long ago.

              There seems to be the perception that some posters are not giving black players who were not given their shot their due. Thats not the truth, only saying that over all black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching.

              Not to say white pitchers were superior. The fact that there was no money in black baseball to keep the best, there was very little scouting to search for good black pitchers. Lets put aside emotions and deal with the facts, not nice but those are the facts.

              When we toss Gibson's numbers around consider the level of pitching he faced, some great ones but on a day to day basis not on the level of MLB.Imagine Piazza hit black pitching day to day.
              Actually, I think there were two major problems with Negro league pitching: 1) the short rosters (due to money concerns) meant you could only carry a few pitchers, and 2) they played 200 times a year. Granted, those 200 games included lesser teams, so they could coast, but they pitched an awful lot--which wasn't good for their arms. I'm sure that Negro league pitchers habitually coasted unless the game was on the line in order to keep that better paying job as a ballplayer as opposed to what jobs they would hold outside of baseball.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by jalbright
                Actually, I think there were two major problems with Negro league pitching: 1) the short rosters (due to money concerns) meant you could only carry a few pitchers, and 2) they played 200 times a year. Granted, those 200 games included lesser teams, so they could coast, but they pitched an awful lot--which wasn't good for their arms. I'm sure that Negro league pitchers habitually coasted unless the game was on the line in order to keep that better paying job as a ballplayer as opposed to what jobs they would hold outside of baseball.

                Jim Albright
                i'm also sure that the best pitchers vastly outclassed many of the hitters they faced throughout the year (if a year even meant anything) - hence, they didn't have to give it their all in many exhibition games - just let the hitters win the game for them - my guess is also that they did get burned sometimes doing this but it was infrequent and probably was rectifiable most of the time

                if satch came to town possesing top-notch speed and control - well he probably was only concerned with one or two hitters on a particular team - he didn't need to go all out, all day

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                  It counts for a lot, but, it's still one man's opinion, and a biased one at that. It's like Tony Dungy saying Peyton Manning is the greatest player of all time.
                  Uh-oh, shouldn't have stooped there.
                  Because Satchel coached Gibson?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bench 5
                    The definition of the "major league" teams often consisted of a a few legit major leaguers and the rest minor leaguers. The top Negro League teams were competitive with major leaguers but the overall depth of talent wasn't nearly as strong as the major leagues. In many of those barnstorming games, position players for the major leaguers would pitch.

                    I agree with you that Satchel Paige was without a doubt one of the top 5 pitchers of all time.

                    I would rate Gibson as better than Piazza but I take Johnny Bench over both of them.
                    " The definition of the "major league" teams often consisted of a a few legit major leaguers and the rest minor leaguers. The top Negro League teams were competitive with major leaguers but the overall depth of talent wasn't nearly as strong as the major leagues "

                    What proof do you have of this ?

                    " In many of those barnstorming games, position players for the major leaguers would pitch "

                    Again proof ?

                    I could say the same for the negroleagues, doesnt mean it's true.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3
                      Every opinion counts, no matter what other think, no matter who disagrees. I don't know whats in Satchel's mind but it's at least reasonable to believe that his opinion "could be' biassed, choosing to pick a hitter who played in his leagues when he rates Gibson as the greatest hitter.
                      " I did see some stats a while back and saved them, I will search for them and post them. It was the batting averages of some who played in black baseball compared to how some did in white integrated minor league baseball and also compared to how they did in MLB. "

                      Jackie robinson hit .390 and slugged well over .600 In the negroleagues, He never did that In the white Intergrated league, But he STILL was elite.

                      So considering the fact that gibson was most likely MUCH better than robinson, I'm willing to bet his stats in the white league would of been incredible.


                      But using that same biased logic your using to aid your arguement for the white league being superior, how do you know players such as ruth would of dominated the way he did had the league not been segregated ?

                      Is it a " coincidence " that Nobody ( besides bonds) has matched the raw stats of ruth, cobb, williams, wagner, and a few others since that segregated era ?

                      Do you really think that ruth would of done Mike Mussina Impersonations In today's league of different cultures from all over the world ?

                      Just something to think about...
                      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-12-2006, 03:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bkmckenna
                        i don't think anyone is denying that josh gibson was indeed a great player but you just can't make up stats - if they are not available - they are not available - it's a shame but that is how it is - please don't make up numbers especially something like 900 homers (why was 900 selected? because of painfully researched data or because no one else has hit 900 homers?)
                        " don't think anyone is denying that josh gibson was indeed a great player but you just can't make up stats - if they are not available - they are not available - it's a shame but that is how it is - please don't make up numbers especially something like 900 homers (why was 900 selected? because of painfully researched data or because no one else has hit 900 homers?) "

                        The same could be said of babe ruth's pitching career. Granted, we do know what his raw stats were, But adjusting for era ( he pitched in the deadball era) they werent anything astromical, No better than the pitching numbers posted By Pat Hentgen.

                        Yet the casual fan, writer, Member of the media, etc, always falsely portrays ruth's pitching career as " Incredible ", and usually tends to use that arguement to aid his place in history.

                        " not going out on a limb to say that piazza faced better pitching day in and day out than anyone in the negro leagues - i personally have a lot of respect for negro league ball and enjoy reading about it - but i am also under no delusions - there were top-notch/great ballplayers in the negro leagues - some would have done okay in the majors some would have excelled - "

                        He probably did face better pitching than gibson.

                        He also faced better, stronger, more effective relief pitching than ruth or any player from that era.
                        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-12-2006, 03:42 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dontworry
                          The same could be said of babe Ruth's pitching career. Granted, we do know what his raw stats were, But adjusting for era ( he pitched in the deadball era) they weren't anything astronomical, No better than the pitching numbers posted By Pat Hentgen.

                          Yet the casual fan, writer, Member of the media, etc, always falsely portrays Ruth's pitching career as " Incredible ", and usually tends to use that argument to aid his place in history.
                          are you saying Ruth wasn't astronomical when he was pitching? second to Walter Johnson, he was the best pitcher in baseball in his prime
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-12-2006, 04:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by blackout805
                            are you saying Ruth wasn't astronomical when he was pitching? second to Walter Johnson, he was the best pitcher in baseball in his prime
                            Babe Ruth was a very excellent pitcher, while he did that. He led his L. in ERA in 1916, but came in 7th in ERA next season, and so we can say that for that one year, he had the best year, among the competing pitchers.

                            I do NOT think it is fair or just to say the if you lead your L in ERA for a year, or even several other stats, than you are the best pitcher in BB, even for that year. Even when Babe led in ERA in 1916, Walter Johnson was still the best pitcher in BB, followed by Alexander.

                            We must be exceedingly careful as to our language in these matters. Words do count. Language matters.

                            Bill Burgess
                            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-12-2006, 04:37 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              someone on this board posted this once:

                              Ruth was a pitcher only in 1915-16-17 and here is how he compares in some stats, not only in the AL but in the NL as well, in all off baseball in 1915-16-17.

                              Base runners/9 innings pitched
                              1---Walter Johnson--------------9.08
                              2---Babe Ruth------------------10.13
                              3---Hooks Dauss----------------11.51

                              Batters faced
                              1---Walter Johnson-------------4038
                              2---Babe Ruth------------------3508
                              3---Hooks Dauss----------------3286

                              Hits/9 Inn.
                              1-- Babe Ruth-----------------6.64
                              2---Walter Johnson------------6.94
                              3---Hooks Dauss--------------7.96

                              Shutouts
                              1---Walter Johnson-----------18
                              2---Babe Ruth----------------16
                              3---Reb Russell---------------13

                              Strikeouts
                              1---Walter Johnson---------619
                              2---Babe Ruth--------------410
                              3---Dutch Leonard----------404

                              Strikeout/Walks
                              1---Walter Johnson--------3.00
                              2---Babe Ruth-------------1.32
                              3---Hooks Dauss-----------1.14

                              Walks
                              1---Joe Bush--------------330
                              2---Babe Ruth-------------311
                              3---Bill James--------------300

                              Walks/9 innings pitched
                              1---Walter Johnson-------1.80
                              2---Hooks Dauss----------3.18
                              3---Babe Ruth------------3.23

                              Strike outs
                              1---Walter Johnson-----619
                              2---Alexander----------608
                              3---Dave Davenport----458
                              4---Babe Ruth---------410

                              Walks
                              1---Babe Ruth---------311
                              2---Pete Schnieder----305
                              3---Davenport--------301

                              Wins
                              1---Alexander--------94
                              2---Walter Johnson--75
                              3--- Babe Ruth------65

                              Winning percentage
                              1---Alexander------.729
                              2---Ruth----------.663
                              3 ---Johnson------.605


                              forget who, but credit to them, not me

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by blackout805
                                someone on this board posted this once:

                                Ruth was a pitcher only in 1915-16-17 and here is how he compares in some stats, not only in the AL but in the NL as well, in all off baseball in 1915-16-17.

                                Base runners/9 innings pitched
                                1---Walter Johnson--------------9.08
                                2---Babe Ruth------------------10.13
                                3---Hooks Dauss----------------11.51
                                I posted those stats some weeks ago. I have always stated that there is no way to tell how Ruth would have done for a career had he remained on the mound. I have never said he was a great pitcher, he would have to prove that over the long haul.

                                But I will say and the numbers prove it, that he was one of the best in the only 3 seasons that he was a pitcher only. It's often brought up that he pitched in the dead ball era and had he remained a pitcher his ERA and some other stats would have suffered with the banning of trick deliveries, the practice of tossing out scuffed up balls and the livelier ball that came in the years 1920, actually that ball may have been improved, tighter wind in 1919.

                                I say to that, so what, all pitchers would have suffered with those changes, what does that have to do with how Ruth pitched before 1920. Didn't all pitchers pitch under the same conditions in the years 1915-16-17.

                                Lets face the facts, look at the only two pitchers that could be considered better than Ruth in the years 1915-16-17, Alexander and Johnson, two of the greatest ever and he was a lefty facing around 75 percent right handed batters

                                Only 3 left handers in the history of the game threw more shutouts in a season than Ruth's 9 shutouts in 1916, Sandy Koufax 11, Carl Hubbell and John Tudor.

                                They can say what they like, that Ruth could not be considered great, he was only a full time pitcher for 3 full seasons. They can't say he would not have been great, I can't say he would have. I can say and it can be proven he was amongst the best in the seasons of 1915-16-17.
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 01-24-2006, 09:13 PM.

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