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  • #76
    Originally posted by Happy Chimp View Post
    What makes Josh Gibson really remarkable is that he was also a catcher, and a good one (unlike Piazza, for instance). Gibson was unquestionably the greatest all-around catcher who ever lived. Not even Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra can approach Gibson overall. I would guess they were all about the same defensively, but Bench and Berra couldn't hit like Gibson. Even aside from unverifiable tales and legends, we have stats against the highest level of competition of .350/.401/.624 (not counting barnstorming). So really, one could compare him with Hank Greenberg- if Greenberg had also been an excellent defensive catcher!
    Gibson would not have hit like Piazza, much less Foxx. i think it is more realistic to assume a career similar to Dickey/Cochrane/Hartnett/Lombardi, who were the very best white catchers of the era. Catchers of the period played short seasons, and had short, inconsistent careers. there is no compelling evidence to believe that Gibson was some sort of superman who could somehow do much better than all of them.
    Last edited by willshad; 05-10-2018, 07:18 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by willshad View Post

      Gibson would not have hit like Piazza, much less Foxx. i think it is more realistic to assume a career similar to Dickey/Cochrane/Hartnett/Lombardi, who were the very best white catchers of the era. Catchers of the period played short seasons, and had short, inconsistent careers. there is no compelling evidence to believe that Gibson was some sort of superman who could somehow do much better than all of them.
      Among career catchers Pizza is in a class of his own as a hitter. Piazza's career 142 OPS+ is way, way ahead of every other catcher. Among catchers with at least 1,000 games at catcher, Piazza is the only one with an OPS+ over 129. Buster Posey has a 134 OPS+ right now but he has not caught 1,000 games yet and he is already in decline. Since the start of the 2016 season Posey has a 121 OPS+. From 2010-15 Posey put up a 141 OPS+.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Happy Chimp View Post
        What makes Josh Gibson really remarkable is that he was also a catcher, and a good one (unlike Piazza, for instance). Gibson was unquestionably the greatest all-around catcher who ever lived. Not even Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra can approach Gibson overall. I would guess they were all about the same defensively, but Bench and Berra couldn't hit like Gibson. Even aside from unverifiable tales and legends, we have stats against the highest level of competition of .350/.401/.624 (not counting barnstorming). So really, one could compare him with Hank Greenberg- if Greenberg had also been an excellent defensive catcher!
        With all due respect to Josh, how do we know what he could do in MLB, it never took place.
        Let me start with the obvious, the reason he did not play as we all know, the color line. To say unfair, an understatement. The game would have been greatly enriched if Josh and some other good and great black players had their chance at MLB.

        But we have to deal with facts, overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching. Not because white MLB pitchers were superior. No real scouting to find the best talent. Black staffs were lean and overworked at times. Sometimes "position players pitched in relief.
        Great black player Buck O'Neil's words. There were some black pitchers the equal of some white pitchers but overall, black league pitching not on the level of MLB at that time.

        For sure from comments of those who saw Josh, he looked to be more than capable of playing at a high level in MLB.
        But exactly how he would have done and ranked in MLB we just don't know, it never happened and what a shame.

        Comment


        • #79
          Bump for the Black Babe Ruth!

          Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 10-18-2018, 02:11 PM.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

            With all due respect to Josh, how do we know what he could do in MLB, it never took place.
            Let me start with the obvious, the reason he did not play as we all know, the color line. To say unfair, an understatement. The game would have been greatly enriched if Josh and some other good and great black players had their chance at MLB.

            But we have to deal with facts, overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching. Not because white MLB pitchers were superior. No real scouting to find the best talent. Black staffs were lean and overworked at times. Sometimes "position players pitched in relief.
            Great black player Buck O'Neil's words. There were some black pitchers the equal of some white pitchers but overall, black league pitching not on the level of MLB at that time.

            For sure from comments of those who saw Josh, he looked to be more than capable of playing at a high level in MLB.
            But exactly how he would have done and ranked in MLB we just don't know, it never happened and what a shame.
            With respect, "overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching" is a pure opinion. Not a fact.

            I'm not saying I think Gibson was a better catcher than Bench. Certainly he doesn't have as good a reputation as a defensive backstop or handler as Bench does.

            But if someone were to take a confrontational stance (which I'm not), they might turn it around and ask, how does anyone know how well Bench or Piazza or other awesome white players would have fared playing in the non-white leagues? Especially considering they would have to play many positions due to small rosters, travel, eat, and sleep in less than luxurious circumstances, and play on some dubious field conditions with some dubious equipment and first aid.

            Bringing the conversation back to "facts," if you look at "Negro Leagues vs. Major Leagues" and "Cuban Leagues vs. Major Leagues" stats in Seamheads, you'll see that many non-white players did quite well head-to-head against MLBers. Not Josh Gibson in his 29 documented plate appearances, but many others. Both pitchers and hitters.

            To wit, here's how a few white HOFers did:

            Rube Marquard: 1-0 in 18 IP, 0.50 ERA
            Bob Lemon, 1-3, 21 IP, 1.71 ERA
            Bob Feller, 0-1, 29 IP, 2.17 ERA
            Lefty Grove, 0-2, 18 IP, 2.50 ERA

            Compared to four of my personal favorites, Willie Foster, Bullet Rogan, Satchel Paige, and Smokey Joe Williams combining for a 16-7 record.

            On the hitting side, Oscar Charleston is noteworthy for his 1.158 OPS in 158 PA vs Major Leaguers. But certainly he wasn't the only guy who hit well.

            Bottom line, there some statistical facts that support the great subjective comments that many non-white players earned from their white counterparts, including luminaries like McGraw.

            And just from a common sense standpoint, who really believes that guys like Mize, Ruth, Wagner, McGraw, etc, were all blowing smoke about non-white players? I trust McGraw's ability to judge and manage MLB talent. No reason he would have lost all his skills when looking at players of a different color.

            Are there facts that support an opinion that Josh Gibson was a better catcher than Bench? Batting wise, very possibly yes. If Charleston dominated Major League pitchers even more than he did non-white pitchers, and Gibson over his career had a better OPS than Charleston, then open minded people would have to consider the possibility (probability?) that Gibson would have produced better hitting numbers than Bench, given the same opportunities as Bench.
            Last edited by Unconventional; 11-03-2019, 05:27 AM.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Unconventional View Post

              With respect, "overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching" is a pure opinion. Not a fact.

              I'm not saying I think Gibson was a better catcher than Bench. Certainly he doesn't have as good a reputation as a defensive backstop or handler as Bench does.

              But if someone were to take a confrontational stance (which I'm not), they might turn it around and ask, how does anyone know how well Bench or Piazza or other awesome white players would have fared playing in the non-white leagues? Especially considering they would have to play many positions due to small rosters, travel, eat, and sleep in less than luxurious circumstances, and play on some dubious field conditions with some dubious equipment and first aid.

              Bringing the conversation back to "facts," if you look at "Negro Leagues vs. Major Leagues" and "Cuban Leagues vs. Major Leagues" stats in Seamheads, you'll see that many non-white players did quite well head-to-head against MLBers. Not Josh Gibson in his 29 documented plate appearances, but many others. Both pitchers and hitters.

              To wit, here's how a few white HOFers did:

              Rube Marquard: 1-0 in 18 IP, 0.50 ERA
              Bob Lemon, 1-3, 21 IP, 1.71 ERA
              Bob Feller, 0-1, 29 IP, 2.17 ERA
              Lefty Grove, 0-2, 18 IP, 2.50 ERA

              Compared to four of my personal favorites, Willie Foster, Bullet Rogan, Satchel Paige, and Smokey Joe Williams combining for a 16-7 record.

              On the hitting side, Oscar Charleston is noteworthy for his 1.158 OPS in 158 PA vs Major Leaguers. But certainly he wasn't the only guy who hit well.

              Bottom line, there some statistical facts that support the great subjective comments that many non-white players earned from their white counterparts, including luminaries like McGraw.

              And just from a common sense standpoint, who really believes that guys like Mize, Ruth, Wagner, McGraw, etc, were all blowing smoke about non-white players? I trust McGraw's ability to judge and manage MLB talent. No reason he would have lost all his skills when looking at players of a different color.

              Are there facts that support an opinion that Josh Gibson was a better catcher than Bench? Batting wise, very possibly yes. If Charleston dominated Major League pitchers even more than he did non-white pitchers, and Gibson over his career had a better OPS than Charleston, then open minded people would have to consider the possibility (probability?) that Gibson would have produced better hitting numbers than Bench, given the same opportunities as Bench.
              The comparison and opinion, MLB pitching and Negro League pitching. That overall Black pitching, not on the same level as MLB pitching, not my words, that was the black great Buck O'Neil. And he did give reasons why he believed that. Take another look.
              You ask how would some good and great white MLB players play under the tough conditions black played in. My take, I have no idea, just like how do we know how some of those in the negro leagues would have performed if allowed to play in MLB..

              Oscar Charleston was great and would have been great in MLB. But your giving a OPS stat from exhibition games and a small sample size. I would say the same about stats of any white MLB players in exhibition games, small sample.

              Again, just as I have said over at least 10 years on this board. It is a shame that some of the greatest players in those years were not allowed in MLB because of skin color.
              Not insensitive to the plight of early black players, only dealing in facts, what better way can it be done
              They never played MLB and no fault of their own. No way to ever tell how they would perform. I'm sure, there were many as good and great as white MLB players in that time period and given their chance some would walk in to the HOF.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Unconventional View Post

                With respect, "overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching" is a pure opinion. Not a fact.

                I'm not saying I think Gibson was a better catcher than Bench. Certainly he doesn't have as good a reputation as a defensive backstop or handler as Bench does.

                But if someone were to take a confrontational stance (which I'm not), they might turn it around and ask, how does anyone know how well Bench or Piazza or other awesome white players would have fared playing in the non-white leagues? Especially considering they would have to play many positions due to small rosters, travel, eat, and sleep in less than luxurious circumstances, and play on some dubious field conditions with some dubious equipment and first aid.

                Bringing the conversation back to "facts," if you look at "Negro Leagues vs. Major Leagues" and "Cuban Leagues vs. Major Leagues" stats in Seamheads, you'll see that many non-white players did quite well head-to-head against MLBers. Not Josh Gibson in his 29 documented plate appearances, but many others. Both pitchers and hitters.

                To wit, here's how a few white HOFers did:

                Rube Marquard: 1-0 in 18 IP, 0.50 ERA
                Bob Lemon, 1-3, 21 IP, 1.71 ERA
                Bob Feller, 0-1, 29 IP, 2.17 ERA
                Lefty Grove, 0-2, 18 IP, 2.50 ERA

                Compared to four of my personal favorites, Willie Foster, Bullet Rogan, Satchel Paige, and Smokey Joe Williams combining for a 16-7 record.

                On the hitting side, Oscar Charleston is noteworthy for his 1.158 OPS in 158 PA vs Major Leaguers. But certainly he wasn't the only guy who hit well.

                Bottom line, there some statistical facts that support the great subjective comments that many non-white players earned from their white counterparts, including luminaries like McGraw.

                And just from a common sense standpoint, who really believes that guys like Mize, Ruth, Wagner, McGraw, etc, were all blowing smoke about non-white players? I trust McGraw's ability to judge and manage MLB talent. No reason he would have lost all his skills when looking at players of a different color.

                Are there facts that support an opinion that Josh Gibson was a better catcher than Bench? Batting wise, very possibly yes. If Charleston dominated Major League pitchers even more than he did non-white pitchers, and Gibson over his career had a better OPS than Charleston, then open minded people would have to consider the possibility (probability?) that Gibson would have produced better hitting numbers than Bench, given the same opportunities as Bench.
                Given that Gibson's hypothetical major league prime would have been in the 1930's Gibson would have put up much more impressive raw unadjusted statistics similar to Jimmie Foxx IMO. Whether this actually proves Gibson was better than Johnny Bench is another debate all together.
                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-04-2019, 11:23 PM.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

                  The comparison and opinion, MLB pitching and Negro League pitching. That overall Black pitching, not on the same level as MLB pitching, not my words, that was the black great Buck O'Neil. And he did give reasons why he believed that. Take another look.
                  You ask how would some good and great white MLB players play under the tough conditions black played in. My take, I have no idea, just like how do we know how some of those in the negro leagues would have performed if allowed to play in MLB..

                  Oscar Charleston was great and would have been great in MLB. But your giving a OPS stat from exhibition games and a small sample size. I would say the same about stats of any white MLB players in exhibition games, small sample.

                  Again, just as I have said over at least 10 years on this board. It is a shame that some of the greatest players in those years were not allowed in MLB because of skin color.
                  Not insensitive to the plight of early black players, only dealing in facts, what better way can it be done
                  They never played MLB and no fault of their own. No way to ever tell how they would perform. I'm sure, there were many as good and great as white MLB players in that time period and given their chance some would walk in to the HOF.
                  Regardless, you passed the inferior pitching thing as fact. It's an opinion.

                  Did you look at the facts on Seamheads? I have no problem with forming opinions based on Buck O'Neill's opinions. But facts plus opinions matter more than just opinions.

                  Many guys including the four guys I mentioned outpitched multiple white HOF pitchers in head-to-head competion. It's a fact.

                  Grove, even as one of the best white southpaws of all-time, lied about ever playing against blacks, just so he didn't have to own up to his losses against them. His tacit admission that he couldn't compete with blacks plus McGraw's opinions and the cold, hards facts are more than enough for reasonable people to form opinions different from what you're referring to.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    Given that Gibson's hypothetical major league prime prime would have been in the 1930's Gibson would have put up much more impressive raw unadjusted statistics similar to Jimmie Foxx IMO. Whether this actually proves Gibson was better than Johnny Bench is another debate all together.
                    Now that makes senseHWR, some are not willing to compromise. Because they think that Gibson or other great black player were superior to some great white MLB players, we shouild accept it as fact.
                    I never, ever said any white MLB player was a better hitter or pitcher then black players, at least I give some ground.
                    What I said was we will never know how any black player would have performed in MLB.

                    Have also said many times on this board for sure a number blacks if given the chance to have played in MLB at that time, would have walked into the HOF.
                    Also mentioned, for sure some of the blacks not allowed into the game had to be better than some white MLB players in that time period
                    What more can be said. How do we know exactly where to rank some of those. Through no fault of their owned, they never played MLB.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Unconventional View Post

                      Regardless, you passed the inferior pitching thing as fact. It's an opinion.

                      Did you look at the facts on Seamheads? I have no problem with forming opinions based on Buck O'Neill's opinions. But facts plus opinions matter more than just opinions.

                      Many guys including the four guys I mentioned outpitched multiple white HOF pitchers in head-to-head competion. It's a fact.

                      Grove, even as one of the best white southpaws of all-time, lied about ever playing against blacks, just so he didn't have to own up to his losses against them. His tacit admission that he couldn't compete with blacks plus McGraw's opinions and the cold, hards facts are more than enough for reasonable people to form opinions different from what you're referring to.
                      What are you saying, blacks in that time period were better than white MLB players.
                      Blacks won some and loss some of those exhibition games.
                      What does that prove that Grove may have lost some of those games.

                      Your last line is funny. That one of the greatest, Grove could not compete with black players.
                      Sounds to me like your saying white MLB hitters were inferior. Grove had success with them, but not with black hitters.
                      And again they were exhibition games.

                      You have a hard head, you don't want to give.
                      Show me anywhere on this board where I ever stated white players in that time were superior to blacks.
                      You want your opinion to be accepted as fact. I said I don't know for sure...........................sounds like your sure.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Unconventional View Post

                        Regardless, you passed the inferior pitching thing as fact. It's an opinion.

                        Did you look at the facts on Seamheads? I have no problem with forming opinions based on Buck O'Neill's opinions. But facts plus opinions matter more than just opinions.

                        Many guys including the four guys I mentioned outpitched multiple white HOF pitchers in head-to-head competion. It's a fact.

                        Grove, even as one of the best white southpaws of all-time, lied about ever playing against blacks, just so he didn't have to own up to his losses against them. His tacit admission that he couldn't compete with blacks plus McGraw's opinions and the cold, hards facts are more than enough for reasonable people to form opinions different from what you're referring to.
                        That was not my opinion, that was a black player Buck O'Neil.
                        Also he never said white pitchers were superior on performance alone.
                        It was because MLB had far better scouting. Also the fact that black teams had lean pitching staffs, often overworked.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

                          What are you saying, blacks in that time period were better than white MLB players.
                          Blacks won some and loss some of those exhibition games.
                          What does that prove that Grove may have lost some of those games.

                          Your last line is funny. That one of the greatest, Grove could not compete with black players.
                          Sounds to me like your saying white MLB hitters were inferior. Grove had success with them, but not with black hitters.
                          And again they were exhibition games.

                          You have a hard head, you don't want to give.
                          Show me anywhere on this board where I ever stated white players in that time were superior to blacks.
                          You want your opinion to be accepted as fact. I said I don't know for sure...........................sounds like your sure.
                          Lol. I'm not the one who wrote "But we have to deal with facts," immediately followed by a pure opinion of "overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching."

                          What color's the sky in your world, Cliff?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                            Given that Gibson's hypothetical major league prime would have been in the 1930's Gibson would have put up much more impressive raw unadjusted statistics similar to Jimmie Foxx IMO. Whether this actually proves Gibson was better than Johnny Bench is another debate all together.
                            If Seamheads is correct, Gibson was No. 1 amongst his peers in OPS+ by large margin with 203. For players with >2000 PA, Torriente, Leonard, Charleston, and Heavy Johnson trailed with 180, 179, 174, and 173, respectively.

                            Comparing to MLB, Ruth is No. 1 at 206, followed by Ted Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, and Trout at 190, 182, 179, and 176, respectively.

                            Foxx is 11th at 163 and Bench is 229th at 126.

                            Based on those numbers the Gibson-Ruth comparisons are fair. At least as far as hitting goes.

                            As far as playing the position of catcher, personally my two primary catchers would be Bench vs lefties and Biz Mackey vs. RHP. Gibson would have to find another way to get in the line up.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Unconventional View Post

                              Lol. I'm not the one who wrote "But we have to deal with facts," immediately followed by a pure opinion of "overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching."

                              What color's the sky in your world, Cliff?
                              Not my words, Buck O'Neil.
                              He did give reasons why he believed that.
                              Only because MLB had a better structure, scouting, and better organized.
                              Not that white baseball player were just born better.

                              Comment

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