All-time blackball Cooperstown outsider team

[jalbright]

As an outgrowth of the Suburbs of Cooperstown project, I want to create a thread which names an all-time team from the various blackball leagues (Cuban Winter, Puerto Rican Winter, Mexican, California Winter, Negro Leagues, Venezuela, Florida hotel leagues, the Dominican Leagues--maybe one or two more) before about 1950 who are not in Cooperstown. I'll provide some resources for those interested in making the picks.

[jalbright]

Bill McNeil's "All World All Star Team--Non Major League"

Guys from Japan will appear in red. The remainder became famous in the American Negro Leagues or in leagues in the Caribbean basin, and almost all of them had too much melanin (dark skin) for the major league color bar. Players with an asterisk (*) are his choices as starters.

Catcher: Josh Gibson*, Katsuya Nomura, Louis Santop, Koichi Tabuchi

First Base: Sadaharu Oh*, Tetsuharu Kawakami, Hector Espino, Alonzo Perry, Buck Leonard, Julian Castillo, Mule Suttles

Second Base: Martin Dihigo*, Morimichi Takagi, Bill Monroe, Sammy T. Hughes, Manuel Cueto

Shortstop: Pop Lloyd*, Yoshio Yoshida, Dobie Moore, Perucho Cepeda, Silvio Garcia, Willie Wells

Third Base: Shigeo Nagashima*, Canena Marquez, Oliver Marcelle, Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson

Outfield: Oscar Charleston*, Cristobal Torriente*, Francisco Coimbre*, Turkey Stearnes, Bernardo Baro, Yutaka Fukumoto, Chino Smith, Koji Yamamoto, Tetelo Vargas, Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Isao Harimoto, Bob Thurman, Alejandro Oms, Andres Mora

Pitcher: Satchel Paige*, Bullet Joe Rogan, Jose Mendez, Masaichi Kaneda, Dolf Luque, Alfredo Ortiz, Eusatquio Pedroso, Luis Padron, Smokey Joe Williams, Willie Foster, Dick Redding, Ramon Arano, Diomedes Olivo, Tetsuya Yoneda, Yutaka Enatsu

[jalbright]

some Negro League poll results:

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The first was the Pittsburgh Courier (an Afro-American Newspaper) poll of its fans in 1952, transcribed by Bill Burgess:

First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.

Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.

Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.

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1999 SABR Poll Top 31 (place listed is among players, 31 because of question of how to deal with Rube Foster in his tie at #5) : Source: Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil

1T Buck Leonard
1T Satchel Paige
3 Cool Papa Bell
4 Oscar Charleston
5T Rube Foster (a good player, but more important as a manager/executive-JA)
5T Josh Gibson
5T Pop Lloyd
8T Martin Dihigo
8T Turkey Stearnes
8T Willie Wells
11T Ray Dandridge
11T Bullet Rogan
13T Mule Suttles
13T Smokey Joe Williams
15 Judy Johnson
16 Leon Day
17 Biz Mackey
18 Willie Foster
19 Monte Irvin
20 Cristobal Torriente
21 Dick Redding
22 Louis Santop
23T Buck O'Neil
23T Jud Wilson
25 Hilton Smith
26 Dick Lundy
27 Larry Doby
28 Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
29 Ben Taylor
30 Jose Mendez
31T Newt Allen
31T Sol White (another who received credit for his nonplaying contributions-JA)
31T John Beckwith

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1993 Poll of Members of Negro League Baseball Museum reported in Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil

Catcher: Josh Gibson, Biz Mackey
Pitcher: Satchel Paige, Leon Day, Hilton Smith, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown
First Base: Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
Second Base: Piper Davis, Newt Allen
Third Base: Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
Shortstop: Willie Wells, Artie Wilson
Outfield: Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Oscar Charleston, Sam Jethroe, Turkey Stearnes, Martin Dihigo

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Historians polled for Cool Papas and Double Duties, by William McNeil, with votes in parentheses after names (23 voting, many with multiple players at the same position):

Greatest Player in Negro League history
Oscar Charleston 7
Josh Gibson 5
Buck Leonard 2

Pitcher: Willie Foster (16), Satchel Paige (15), Smokey Joe Williams (14), Bullet Joe Rogan (11), John Donaldson (7), Leon Day (4), Nip Winters (3)
Catcher: Josh Gibson (19), Biz Mackey (16)
First Base: Buck Leonard (19), Mule Suttles (9)
Second Base: Newt Allen (8), Bingo DeMoss (8)
Third Base: Judy Johnson (13), Ray Dandridge (12)
Shortstop: Pop Lloyd (18), Willie Wells (14)
Outfield: Oscar Charleston (19), Cristobal Torriente (17), Cool Papa Bell (15), Turkey Stearnes (15), Monte Irvin (11), Pete Hill (8)
Utility: Martin Dihigo (14), John Beckwith (5)

[jalbright]

Bill James' ratings of Negro League position players (* means in HOF):

Catcher
1. Josh Gibson*
2. Louis Santop*
3. Biz Mackey*
4. Double Duty Radcliffe
5. Bruce Petway
6. Roy Campanella*
7. Quincy Trouppe
8. Joe Greene
9. Larry Brown
10. Frank Duncan

First Base
1. Buck Leonard*
2. Luke Easter
3. Ben Taylor*
4. Buck O'Neil
5. Tank Carr
6. George Giles
7. Highpockets Hudspeth
8. Ed Rile
9. Bob Boyd
10. Showboat Thomas
xx Edgar Wesley

Second Base
1. Bingo Demoss
2. Newt Allen
3. George Scales
4. Sammy T. Hughes
5. Bill Monroe
6. Frank Grant*
7. Charlie Grant
8. Frank Warfield
9. Dick Seay
10. Dink Mothel
xx. Bonnie Serrell

Third Base
1. Ray Dandridge*
2. Judy Johnson*
3. Oliver Marcelle
4. Jud Wilson*
5. Dave Malarcher
6. John Beckwith
7. Newt Joseph
8. Alex Radcliffe
9. Candy Jim Taylor
10. Dewey Creasy

Shortstop
1. Pop Lloyd*
2. Willie Wells*
3. Dick Lundy
4. Dobie Moore
5 Bill Riggins
6. Pee Wee Butts
7. Sam Bankhead
8. Paul Stevens
9. Silvio Garcia
10. Abe Harrison
11. Pelayo Chacon

Left Field
1. Turkey Stearns*
2. Mule Suttles*
3. Monte Irvin*
4. Pete Hill*
5. Gene Benson
6. Vic Harris
7. Chaney White
8. Heavy Johnson
9. Frog Redus
10. Hurley McNair

Center Field
1. Oscar Charleston*
2. Cristobal Torriente*
3. Cool Papa Bell*
4. Spot Poles
5. Jimmy Lyons
6. Clint Thomas
7. Jimmy Crutchfield
8. Fats Jenkins
9. Charles Blackwell
10. Eddie Dwight

Right Field
1. Martin Dihigo*
2. Willard Brown*
3. Ted Strong
4. Wild Bill Wright
5. Alejandro Oms
6. Chino Smith
7. Cherokee Davis
8. Jelly Gardner
9. Rap Dixon
10. Nat Rogers

[jalbright]

If you want to make room for Tetelo Vargas (the Dominican Deer), Diomedes Olivo, or Perucho Cepeda (in the BBF HOF, and Orlando's father), feel free.

Also, you can move players around to positions they actually played. So, for instance, if you like Beckwith's bat but don't feature him at short, he can go pretty much anywhere, as he is listed in my edition of the Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues as playing them all, though outfield is lumped into one. If you want a DH, I'm not going to say no, either, but it isn't required. I won't, since they didn't have that role then.

[jalbright]

Some BBF threads which might help:

All-Time Black Team

Negro League profiles

Negro League Awards

Negro League data

[jalbright]

The names I come up with as nominated but not elected in the 2006 Negro League HOF election:

Newt Allen, William Bell, Chet Brewer, Bill Byrd, Rap Dixon, John Donaldson, Sammy Hughes, Fats Jenkins, Grant "Home Run" Johnson, Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Minnie Minoso, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, Buck O'Neil, Red Parnell, Spotswood Poles, Cannonball Dick Redding, George Scales, and Candy Jim Taylor.

[jalbright]

I'm going to include some reserves, but I don't think I'm going to go with a 25 man roster if for no other reason than the Negro League teams rarely went with as many as 16. I'll probably go with 18-20, but we'll see.

[baseballPAP]

Going mostly from my own lists.....
C- Bruce Petway
1B- Buck O'Neill
2B- Bingo DeMoss and Newt Allen
3B- John Beckwith
SS- Perucho Cepeda and Dick Lundy
OF- Bill Wright
OF- Spot Poles
OF- Vic Harris
OF- Alejandro Oms
P- Ted Radcliffe
P- Bill Jackman
P- Bill Byrd
P- Ray Brown (edit...missed him on the HOF list...replace with Dick Redding)
P- Luis Tiant Sr.

[leecemark]

C: Radcliffe and Trouppe boyh are borderline HOF candidates
1B: O'Neil was not a Hall of Fame player, but I wish he had made it anyway
2B: Monroe is a solid candidate
3B: Beckwith is the Dick Allen of the NeL(I assumed he HAD made it)
SS: Lundy is on a par with say Dave Bancroft if you think he belongs
SS: Home Run Johnson may have been an early version of Beckwith
SS: Cepeda's case depends on how much you consider non-US contributions
LF: Benson is proably in the Henie Manush class of candidates
CF: Poles is at least close to the borderline
RF: This was not a premium position in the NeL - I'd probably us HR Johnson here or Ohms with credit for his Cuba play
SP: Ray Brown is a major oversight
SP: Redding had a nice peak, but was he good enough long enough?
--I had been thinking the huge group taken by lasy year's committee more or less closed the books. It may have for actual induction, but they did miss some good candidates. Of course they made up for it with some questionable ones:noidea.

[Dogdaze]

C: Bruce Petway
1B: Buck O'Neil
2B: George Scales/Newt Allen
3B: John Beckwith/Alex Radcliffe
SS: Dobie Moore/Dick Lundy
LF: Heavy Johnson
CF: Spotswood Poles
RF: Alejandro Oms/Wild Bill Wright
P: Chet Brewer
P: Leroy Matlock
P: Bill Byrd
P: John Donaldson

Most of these players are borderline candidates for HOF imo, but I do feel that Beckwith, Oms, Poles, Brewer and Donaldson should be in. Buck O'Neil, should be in, not as a player, but for all his baseball contributions over the years. And all the other players I listed imo based on my study and knowledge of them, are at least as good if not better then some players already inducted.

[jalbright]

Mark,

Ray Brown is in.

[jalbright]

Here's my team, with some comments, including positions played:

C: Quincy Trouppe C, of, 2b Hit well and played for a long time. Had a good defensive rep. Five times in the Negro League all-star game, and pretty much an all-star wherever he played for most of his 23 year career. What's not to like about that?

C: Bruce Petway c, 1b, of He has the defensive rep, and it seems well deserved. I'm not so confident he was a great hitter, though.

1b: John Beckwith ss, 3b, c, of, 1b, 2b: I can't do without this bat, but he didn't have a good glove rep. Putting him at first solves that.

2b: Home Run Johnson ss, 2b: I like his play, and he should provide good defense. He also had a long career. The main reason for moving him is I can only play one guy at short, and need to fill other spots.

2b: Sammy T. Hughes 2b, ss, 1b: He tailed off at the end of his career, when he took on managing responsibilities. Otherwise, he could have turned in the best career as a 2b (primarily) in the Negro Leagues.

2b: George Scales 2b, 3b, 1b, ss, of: He could hit some, and has some defense to add. Not quite a HOFer as best I can tell right now, but a good player.

ss: Perucho Cepeda ss, of I have to get both his and Dobie Moore's bats in here, and Moore played third at least for the 25th Infantry team, per a boxscore or two in Bill McNeil's book on blackball in the winter months.

ss: Dick Lundy ss, 3b, 2b, c: Even with all the machinations I've used, I can't quite use all the good shortstops I have. Lundy would be my super sub. It's nice to have a guy who was among the best in his league (ESPN's 2005 Encyclopedia gives him a MVP, Holway says two) in such a role.

3b: Dobie Moore ss, of, 3b You've got to find room for a guy with his bat and glove, and, as he did play the spot for the 25th Infantry Wreckers, I'll make room for him here so I can make maximum use of my "shortstops".

of: Minnie Minoso of, 3b: A long career, split between the majors and Negro Leagues. He should be in Cooperstown already. Broad range of skills.

of: Alejandro Oms cf : A cf with a good glove and some power. Sounds good to me.

of: Chino Smith of, 2b: A shame he died so young of malaria. That's the only thing that kept him out of Cooperstown. I'm not going to say he belongs there, but we've gone deep enough that he's way too good to be forgotten. He was among the best in his league, ESPN gives him one MVP, Holway three.

of: Spot Poles cf: I needed another true cf. I think he's a little short of Cooperstown quality, but, again, we've gone so deep I can't forget him. He certainly was a good one.

of: Francisco Coimbre: of From what I read, an early, not quite as good, version of Clemente. I don't support him for Cooperstown, but somebody that good deserves a place on this team.

My pitching staff is a mess in terms of assigning them roles, but here goes:

Cannonball Dick Redding RHP 3 ESPN Negro League best pitcher, 4 from Holway. Good for a decade, maybe a little longer.

John Donaldson LHP Holway and ESPN give him one Negro League best pitcher each. However, his prime only lasted 5-6 years.

Nip Winters LHP ESPN and Bill James call him the best Negro League pitcher twice, Holway gives him three. He was the best pitcher in the strongest Negro League of the 1920's, the Eastern Colored League. Another guy with a 5-6 year prime.

Bill Byrd RHP In the Negro League all-star game 5 times, 2 ESPN best pitcher awards and three each from Bill James and Holway. Pitched well in the States, Venezuela and Puerto Rico, and was top-shelf for over a decade.

Frank Wickware RHP 1 ESPN best pitcher, 2 Holway. Another guy who was really tough for about half a decade.

Dizzy Dismukes RHP 1 each Negro League best pitcher from Holway and ESPN. Good for a decade or so.

Chet Brewer RHP 1 best Negro League pitcher from Bill James and ESPN. Good for most of two decades, played in Mexico, Puerto Rico, the fabled 1937 season in the Dominican, and played well at least at most of those stops.

Dave Barnhill RHP 1 best Negro League pitcher from each Holway and ESPN, 4 time Negro League all-star. His last 4 years in organized ball were spent in the top minors after integration, but at 35 and older, he wasn't a prospect any more. He was good for a decade before that, though.

Honorable mention: IF Bus Clarkson, OF/C Heavy Johnson, P Don Newcombe

[Paul Wendt]

Mark,

Ray Brown is in.

The 1952 Pittsburgh poll put Dave Brown on the second team, Ray Brown on the fifth team. Ray Brown is the one in the Hall of Fame --and BBFever HOF and Hall of Merit. Dave Brown is in none of those.

[leecemark]

of: Chino Smith of, 2b: A shame he died so young of malaria. That's the only thing that kept him out of Cooperstown. I'm not going to say he belongs there, but we've gone deep enough that he's way too good to be forgotten.

--I don't know if the 10 year rule really applies to Negro Leaguers, but I'm pretty sure that Chino Smith did not come close to 10 years playing organized ball of any kind, anywhere. He was apparently a great talent, but I couldn't support him for Cooperstown.