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All-Time Black Team, A & B

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  • All-Time Black Team, A & B

    Anyone care to share your all-time Black teams, A & B?

    And please don't forget to post your teams on our other Documention Thread, 'Member's Official Opinions' --- Thanking you in advance for your participation---Bill

    A Team:
    1B - Buck Leonard;
    2B - Jackie Robinson;
    SS - John Henry Lloyd;
    3B - Oliver Marcell;
    LF - Barry Bonds;
    CF - Oscar Charleston:
    RF - Willie Mays, Christobal Torriente;
    C - Josh Gibson and Biz Mackay;
    P - Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, "Smokey Joe" Williams, "Satchel" Paige, "Bullet Joe" Rogan, John Donaldson and Willie Foster;
    Utility IF - Sam Bankheart;
    Utility OF - Martin Dihigo, Monte Irvin, Ken Griffey, Jr.;
    Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes and Danny McClelland;
    Manager - Rube Foster

    B Team:
    1B - Ben Taylor;
    2B - Bingo DeMoss;
    3B - Judy Johnson:
    SS - Willie Wells:
    LF - Hank Aaron;
    CF - Cool Papa Bell;
    RF - Roberto Clemente;
    C - Roy Campanella and Bruce Petway;
    P - Dave Brown, Cannonball Dick Redding, Nip Winters, Dizzy Dismukes and Don Newcombe, Dave Stuart;
    Utility 1F - John Beckwith, Newt Allen, A. Rodriguez, Ernie Banks;
    Utility OF - Clint Thomas, Chino Smith, Pete Hill
    coaches - C.I. Taylor and Dave Malarcher,
    Manager - Cum Posey.

    Honorable mentions: Frank Robinson, Gwynn, Morgan, Billy Williams, Bill Madlock, Rod Carew, Ozzie Smith
    Form Chart:

    C - Roy Campanella, Elston Howard. Negro Leagues: Josh Gibson, James "Biz" Mackay, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, "Double Duty" Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin, Quincy Trouppe.

    1B - Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, Cecil Cooper, Cecil Fielder, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas; Negro Leagues: Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor

    2B - Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Alfonso Soriano; Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss

    SS - Ernie Banks; Negro Leagues: John "Pop" Lloyd, John Beckwith, Willie Wells,

    3B - Bill Madlock; Negro Leagues: Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell

    LF - Barry Bonds, Ricky Henderson, Billy Williams, Willie Stargell. Negro Leagues: Mule Suttles

    CF - Willie Mays, Ken Griffey, Jr., Andruw Jones, Torri Hunter, Vada Pinson; Negro Leaguers: Oscar Charleston, "Cool Papa" Bell, Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Martin Dihigo

    RF - Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Tony Gwynn, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Dave Winfield, Tony Oliva, Vlad Guerrero, Sammie Sosa, Daryl Strawberry; Negro Leagues: Monte Irvin, Turkey Stearnes,


    1930-1960: Don Newcombe

    1960-1980: Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Luis Tiant, Bob Veale, Al Downing,

    1980-Present: Pedro Martinez, Dave Stewart, Mariano Rivera

    Negro Leagues:
    Robert Leroy "Satchel" Paige, 1926-1967
    "Smokey Joe" Williams, 1905-1932
    Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, 1917-38
    "Cannonball" Dick Redding, 1911-38
    Dave Brown, 1918-1925
    Andrew "Rube" Foster, 1902-1926
    Bill Foster, 1923-38
    Jose Mendez, 1908-1926
    Martin Dihigo, 1923-45
    Here are some background Reference Resources:

    It might serve a purpose to see how many former members of the Negro Leagues have presently been enshrined.

    1971 - Satchel Paige --------- Negro L. committee
    1972 - Josh Gibson --------- Negro L. committe
    1972 - Buck Leonard --------- Negro L. committee
    1973 - Monte Irvin ---------- Negro L. committee
    1974 - "Cool Papa" Bell -------- Negro L. committee
    1975 - Judy Johnson -------- Negro L. committee
    1976 - Oscar Charleston ------ Negro L. committee
    1977 - Martin Dihigo -------- Negro L. committee
    1977 - "Pop" Lloyd -------- Negro L. committee

    1981 - Rube Foster - ---------Veterans committee
    1987 - Ray Dandridge ---------- Veterans committee
    1995 - Leon Day ----------- Veterans committee
    1996 - Willie Foster ----------- Veterans committee
    1997 - Willie Wells ------------ Veterans committee
    1998 - Bullet Joe Rogan --------- Veterans committee
    1999 - Smokey Joe Williams ------ Veterans committee
    2000 - Turkey Stearns ----------- Veterans committee
    2001 - Hilton Smith - -------------Veterans committee
    A. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they
    selected the following team:

    A Team------------------------B Team

    1B - Buck Leonard-----------1B - Ben Taylor
    2B - Jackie Robinson---------2B - Bingo DeMoss
    SS - John Henry Lloyd-------SS - Willie Wells
    3B - Oliver Marcell-----------3B - Judy Johnson
    LF - Monte Irvin-------------LF - Pete Hill
    CF - Oscar Charleston-------CF - Cool Papa Bell
    RF - Christobal Torriente----RF - Chino Smith
    C - Josh Gibson / Biz Mackey-C - Campanella / Bruce Petway
    P - Smokey Joe Williams------P - Dave Brown
    P - Satchel Paige------------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
    P - Bullet Joe Rogan---------P - Nip Winters
    P - John Donaldson ----------P - Dizzy Dismukes
    P - Willie Foster-------------P - Don Newcombe
    Utility OF - Martin Dihigo---Utility 1B - John Beckwith
    Utility IF - Martin Dihigo----Utility 1B - Newt Allen
    Utility IF - Sam Banheart---Utility - Clint Thomas
    Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes--coaches - C. I. Taylor
    Coaches - Danny McClelland--coaches - Dave Malarcher
    Manager = Rube Foster-------Manager - Cum Posey
    The Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans in 1952. Their readers listed the following players into 5 teams:

    First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.

    Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.

    Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.

    Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.

    Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.

    Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.

    *Some players that weren't listed but could have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-20-2008, 01:13 PM.

  • #2
    Mixing the Negro league stars with black MLB players is too confusing for me. I never saw a Negro League game -- not even on TV,
    With stats being so meager, most of what we "know" of the Negro league stars is myth, fable and anecdote.

    All I can offer is my list of star black MLB players:
    1B: Eddie Murray
    2B: Joe Morgan
    SS: Ozzie Smith? Ernie Banks?
    3B: Bill Madlock
    LF: Barry Bonds
    CF: Willie Mays
    RF: Hank Aaron? Sammy Sosa?
    C: Roy Campanella
    P: Bob Gibson

    I wonder how this team would match up against an all-Hispanic team. That's another group that was excluded from early MLB.
    Last edited by Appling; 07-12-2004, 02:54 PM.


    • #3
      with the help of my "relative" Bill James"
      P-JWilliams/Hilton Smith
      And you KNOW I'd put Dihigo at 2B or something
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge


      • #4
        A very Interesting topic Bill.I must have missed it when you first posted it to the forums.

        Team A

        catcher - Josh Gibson
        first - Buck Leonard
        second - Jackie Robinson
        shortstop - Pop Loyd
        third - Judy Johnson
        outfield - Willie Mays
        outfield - Oscar Charleston
        outfield - Barry Bonds
        outfield - Willie Stargell
        dh - Dave Winfield
        utility - Martin DiHigo
        utility - Willie McCovey
        utility - Roy Campanella
        utility - Minnie Minoso
        utility - Jim Rice

        starting pitcher - Satchel Paige
        starting pitcher - Pedro Martinez
        starting pitcher - Juan Marichal
        starting pitcher - Bob Gibson
        starting pitcher - Fergie Jenkins

        relief pitcher - Lee Smith
        relief pitcher - Smokey Joe Williams
        relief pitcher - Mariano Rivera
        relief pitcher - Don Newcombe

        Team B

        catcher - Bizz Mackey
        first - Eddie Murray
        second - Joe Morgan
        shortstop - Ozzie Smith
        third - Oliver Marcelle
        outfield - Cristobal Torriente
        outfield - Cool Papa Bell
        outfield - Roberto Clemente
        outfield - Frank Robinson
        dh - Hank Aaron
        utility - Rickey Henderson
        utility - Louis Santop
        utility - Billy Williams
        utility - Rod Carew
        utility - Kirby Puckett

        starting pitcher - Vida Blue
        starting pitcher - Joe Rogan
        starting pitcher - Willie Foster
        starting pitcher - Dave Stewart
        starting pitcher - Luis Tiant

        relief pitcher - Jose Mesa
        relief pitcher - JR Richard
        relief pitcher - Ted Radcliffe
        relief pitcher - Don Wilson

        That's my A & B teams but with more thought I may move some around in the future but this is a good start at my thinking of what I would want on my teams.

        I tried for a balance on both teams but I know that Team A's pitching is superior but either team would win on a given day.
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:50 PM.


        • #5
          I must have missed it as well. Probably thought it was the same "All Time Team A & B" thread as the one that has 5 pages.

          I'll echo Appling's word, and say I know barely anything about Negro Leaguers that's factual, but I'll go on word of mouth for some of these.

          C-Josh Gibson
          C2-Roy Campanella
          1B-Eddie Murray
          2B-Jackie Robinson
          SS-Pop Lloyd
          3B-Mad Dog Madlock
          RF-Frank Robinson
          CF-Willie Mays
          LF-Billy Williams
          DH-Cecil Cooper

          SP-Juan Marichal
          SP-Satchel Paige
          SP-Bob Gibson
          SP-Fergie Jenkins
          RP-Lee Smith
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:52 PM.
          AL East Champions: 1981 1982
          AL Pennant: 1982
          NL Central Champions: 2011
          NL Wild Card: 2008

          "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham


          • #6
            Hey guys (and girls?),

            New guy here. Thought this looked like an interesting thread to jump into. I chose to just give an all negro league team because any chance I have of giving these men the props they deserve, well frankly, I can't resist.

            Team A

            1b- Buck Leonard
            2b-Bingo DeMoss
            SS-Pop Lloyd
            3b-Ray Dandridge
            C-Josh Gibson
            Of-Oscar Charleston
            Cristobal Torriente (I know, he's Cuban)
            Turkey Stearnes
            P-Bullet Joe Rogan

            Manager- Rube Foster

            Team B

            1b-Mule Suttles
            2b-Sammy T. Hughes
            SS-Willie Wells
            3b-Judy Johnson
            C- Biz Mackey
            Of- Cool Papa Bell
            Monte Irvin
            Jud Wilson (didn't play much outfield, but had to be on this list somewhere)
            P-Satchel Paige

            Manager- Double Duty Radcliffe

            What I wouldn't give to see a matchup between these teams "come to life". Thanks for an interesting topic.
            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:53 PM.


            • #7
              All-Time Black Team

              Let me offer this first draft. Time is not always a Commodity that is easy to get hold of... but we will prevail...Whatever that means!

              1B Buck Leonard
              2B Jackie Robinson
              SS John Henry "Pop" Lloyd
              3B Judy Johnson
              LF Lou Brock ( Suprise, suprise, suprise!)
              CF Willie Mays
              RF Roberto Clemente
              C1 Josh Gibson
              C2 Roy Campanella
              SP Satchel Paige
              SP Bob Gibson
              SP Leon Day
              SP William Hendrick "Willie" Foster
              LR Smokey Joe Williams
              SR Joe "Bullet" Rogan
              SR Hilton Smith
              CL* Andre "Rube" Foster
              U Ted DD Radcliff
              U Martin Dihigo
              U Oscar Charleston
              U Ernie Banks
              U Oliver Marcelle.

              * I'm making Rube Foster a player/manager.

              Later for the final team.
              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:45 PM.
              "Mr. Rickey, do you want a ball player who's affraid to fight back?" Jackie Robinson.

              " I want a ball player with guts enough NOT to fight back". Branch Rickey


              • #8
                My A Team:

                C: Gibson
                1B: Leonard
                2B: Jackie
                3B: Judy Johnson
                SS: Lloyd
                OF: Charleston
                OF: Stearnes
                OF: Cool Papa
                Util: Dihigo
                SP: Smokey Joe
                SP: Satchel Paige

                My Great Grandpa's:

                C: Gibson
                1B: Suttles
                2B: Bingo DeMoss
                3B: Judy Johnson
                SS: Lloyd
                OF: Torriente
                OF: Charleston
                OF: Stearnes
                Util: Cool Papa
                SP: Smokey Joe
                SP: Satchel Paige
                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:55 PM.
                "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
                Bo Jackson

                Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
                Bo Jackson

                My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
                Bo Jackson


                • #9
                  I'm going to only include those who played MLB, not that those who only played in the Negro Leagues were inferior players, but I honestly don'y know enough beyond the superstars [Gibson, Bell, Leonard] that I would do a diservice to other deserving players.

                  LF-F. Robinson
                  P-Gibson,Martinez, Marichal,Cuellar, Newcombe
                  RP-Paige,Lee Smith
                  It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!


                  • #10
                    C - Biz Mackay, Santop Loftin, Josh Gibson, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown
                    1B - Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor, Jud Wilson, Ed Douglas, George Car
                    2B - Bingo DeMoss, Jackie Robinson, Bill Monroe, George Scales, Bunny Downs
                    SS - John Lloyd, Willie Wells, John Beckwith, Dick Lundy, Doby Moore
                    3B - Judy Johnson, Oliver Marcelle, Ray Dandridge, Dave Malarcher, Bill Francis
                    OF - Irvin, Hill, Suttles, Dihigo, Dixon,
                    OF - Charleson, Bell, Spot Poles, Doby, Gardner
                    OF - Torriente, Chino Smith, Stearns, Jenkins, Payne
                    P - Paige, Williams, Rogan, John Dondaldson, Bill Foster

                    Bill Burgess
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 09:38 AM.


                    • #11
                      C: Josh Gibson, Roy Campanella
                      1B: Willie McCovey, Eddie Murray
                      2B: Joe Morgan, Jackie Robinson
                      SS: Willie Wells, Pop Lloyd (so many good ones - Larkin, Dobie Moore, Banks, The Wizard..)
                      3B: Bill Madlock, Ray Dandridge (man, that's a weak spot)
                      RF: Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson
                      CF: Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays (sorry, Mr. Griffey)
                      LF: Barry Bonds, Rickey Henderson
                      P: Smokey Joe Williams, Satchel Paige, Bob Gibson, Ferguson Jenkins, Lee Smith, Bill Foster, Bullet Joe Rogan

                      I'm only counting African-Americans (or African-Canadians). Otherwise Cristobal Torriente, Pedro Martinez, Juan Marichal, Martin Dihigo and Jose Mendez would all likely join the list.


                      • #12

                        Here's my All-Time Black team, but I am not including hispanics. The term "black" is meant to refer to African-Americans, not dark-skinned hispanics, so I will not include players such as Pedro Martinez and Christobel Torriente. Here is my team:

                        The A team:
                        C-Josh Gibson
                        1B-Buck Leonard
                        2B-Joe Morgan
                        3B-Ray Dandridge
                        SS-Pop Lloyd
                        LF-Barry Bonds
                        CF-Oscar Charleston
                        RF-Hank Aaron

                        SP1-Satchel Paige
                        SP2-Smokey Joe Williams
                        SP3-Bob Gibson
                        SP4-Willie Foster
                        SP5-Ferguson Jenkins
                        RP-Lee Smith

                        The B team
                        C-Biz Mackey
                        1B-Frank Thomas
                        2B-Jackie Robinson
                        3B-Bill Madlock
                        SS-Willie Wells
                        LF-Rickey Henderson
                        CF-Willie Mays
                        RF-Frank Robinson

                        SP1-Joe Rogan
                        SP2-Don Newcombe
                        SP3-Hilton Smith
                        SP4-John Donaldson
                        SP5-Rube Foster
                        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 07-10-2005, 08:38 PM.


                        • #13
                          A Team
                          C - Josh Gibson
                          1B - Willie McCovey
                          2B - Joe Morgan
                          SS - Ernie Banks
                          3B - Ray Dandridge
                          LF - Barry Bonds
                          CF - Willie Mays
                          RF - Hank Aaron
                          P - Bob Gibson, Satchel Paige, Joe Williams, Fergie Jenkins

                          B Team
                          C - Roy Campanella
                          1B - Eddie Murray
                          2B - Jackie Robinson
                          SS - Pop Lloyd
                          3B - Judy Johnson
                          LF - Turkey Stearnes
                          CF - Oscar Charleston
                          RF - Frank Robinson
                          P - Joe Rogan, Bill Foster, Luis Tiant


                          • #14
                            I don't like trying to determine race nor do I like evaluating still active players. I don't think it productive to separate out Afro-American major leaguers from other major leaguers. I will, however, reprise my Negro League all-time team:

                            C--Josh Gibson, Louis Santop
                            1B--Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
                            2B--Martin Dihigo, Frank Grant
                            3B--Ray Dandridge, Jud Wilson
                            SS--Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
                            OF--Oscar Charleston, Cristobal Torriente, Turkey Stearnes
                            Cool Papa Bell, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso
                            Starting pitcher--Satchel Paige, Smoky Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown and Cannonball Dick Redding
                            closer--Hilton Smith
                            bullpen--Willie Foster, Leon Day, Rube Foster
                            manager--Rube Foster

                            honorable mention--IF John Beckwith, SS Dobie Moore, ss Home Run Johnson, c Biz Mackey, mgr C. I. Taylor

                            Jim Albright
                            Last edited by jalbright; 12-04-2005, 09:54 AM.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


                            • #15
                              Guys, I've seen Pedro Martinez, Cristobal Torriente, Juan Marichal, and Jose Mesa mentioned. They're HISPANIC it's ignorant to say that they're black for whatever reason. Anywho, here's my list (MLB players only):

                              C Roy Campanella
                              1B Frank Thomas
                              2B Joe Morgan
                              SS Ernie Banks
                              3B Bill Madlock
                              LF Barry Bonds
                              CF Willie Mays
                              RF Henry Aaron
                              DH Harold Baines
                              P Bob Gibson

                              The lineup:
                              1 Morgan
                              2 Mays
                              3 Aaron
                              4 Bonds
                              5 Thomas
                              6 Banks
                              7 Baines
                              8 Campanella
                              9 Madlock


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