All-Time Black Team, A & B

[Bill Burgess]

Yea man, I hear you. I mean there are many Latinos of African descent who deny their African identity and blackness; it's a free world, so if a dark-skinned man says he's indio and not black, that's his prerogative. I guess my problem is just with people saying "Latinos can't be black because of their Latinoness." It is offensive to implicitly impose one's rigid American conception of race on others (for example, historically on most government forms one had to decide between checking the black box or the Hispanic box for race/ethnicity, as though they are distinct groupings). Furthermore, it negates Afro-Latino/a identity, and it precludes the possibility of the contributions of people of African descent to be recognized in the Hispanophone Caribbean and Latin America. Just looking at the history of Caribbean players in the US, it's just so clear black-latino divide isn't the reality - from the NY Cubans to Sammy Sosa saying "I'm a black man."

When I started this thread, I thought it might honor the black ballplayer. All of them. I was startled when some members felt it necessary to exclude the international black ballplayers. Even ridiculous to adopt such an exclusionary approach. But what could I do? Order them to include them?

I remember when I was a kid, and the politicians passed laws against discrimination, presumably to protect blacks and minorities from racism/segregation. However, even the best-intentioned laws can have unintended side-effects.

The Harlem-based Arthur Mitchell Ballet Company had to go out and recruit white/Asian ballet dancers. How awkward, since the company was founded to show that blacks can dance ballet. A Harlem-based tap dance group had to do the same thing. Silly, isn't it? Political correctness can often bite one in the butt.

[stejay]

C Josh Gibson
1B Ernie Banks
2B Rod Carew
3B Ray Dandridge
SS Ozzie Smith
RF Hank Aaron
LF Barry Bonds
OF Kirby Puckett
P Pedro Martinez
P Satchel paige
RP Mariano Rivera

B Team

C Biz Mackey
1B Eddie Murray
2B Jackie Robinson
3B Judy Johnson
SS Willie Wells
RF Reggie Jackson
LF Rickey Henderson
OF Ken Griffey jr
P Dwight Gooden
P Bill Foster
RP Smokey Joe Williams

[metrotheme]

I borrowed the format from another poster to save myself time and I added a few changes.

C--Josh Gibson, Roy Campanella
1B--Buck Leonard, Mule Suttles
2B--Martin Dihigo, Joe Morgan
3B--Ray Dandridge, Judy Johnson
SS--Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells
OF--Oscar Charleston, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson, Cool Papa Bell, Barry Bonds
Starting pitcher--Satchel Paige, Smoky Joe Williams, Bob Gibson, Bullet Joe Rogan, Ray Brown
closer--Hilton Smith, Lee Smith
bullpen--Willie Foster, Leon Day, Doc Gooden, Vida Blue
manager--Buck O'Neil, Rube Foster

[Bill Burgess]

After 1.5 yrs. in mothballs, I'm pleased to see this thread get some play.

[Paul Wendt]

The forum name is "The Negro Leagues" and the racial/ethnic identity matters are inevitably intermingled with the meaning of that term.

Another consideration is that research and evaluation of play in the Negro Leagues, and writing about the Negro Leagues, is a special field. Some people feel at home (versed if not well-versed) listing the top outfielders of those leagues but lost comparing Cool Papa Bell with Willie Wilson, Tim Raines, or Devon White.

[baseballPAP]

Disappointing to see so many MLB players on these lists, and Willie McCovey taking a backseat to guys he clearly beats out, like Banks and Murray.

Anyway, my all-time, "anyone who's race would have kept them out of MLB in the 30's" team:

C-Josh Gibson/Roy Campanella
1B-Willie McCovey/Mule Suttles
2B-Joe Morgan/Rod Carew
3B-John Beckwith/Jud Wilson
SS-Pop Llyod/Barry Larkin
LF-Barry Bonds/Rickey Henderson
CF-Willie Mays/Oscar Charleston
RF-Hank Aaron/Frank Robinson
UT-Martin DiHigo/Dick Allen
SP-Pedro Martinez,Satchel Paige,Smokey Joe Williams,Bob Gibson/Juan Marichal,Fergie Jenkins,Hilton Smith,Willie Foster
RP-Mariano Rivera,Lee Smith/Joe Rogan,Rube Foster

Mostly MLB guys, true. BUT, the lack of concrete stats keeps me from rating NeLers overly high on my lists. If I had something more than a few numbers and a bunch of legends, some of these guys would be higher, and might very well knock some others off:Buck Leonard, Frank Grant, Cristobal Torreinte, Ray Dandridge, Cannonball Redding and several more. Also of note, if I had stuck to my own rules strictly, I'd have included Japanese players as well, and would have had Oh, Kaneda and Nagashima here for sure.

[BillOK]

A & B all-time teams

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson

[Appling]

........................A Team...........B team


Catcher............ J Gibson........... R. Campanella

1st base............M. Suttles.........F. Thomas

2nd base............J. Robinson........J. Morgan

3rd base.............J. Wilson..........J. Beckwith

SS.....................A. Rodriguez.....D. Moore

Left....................B. Bonds..........O. Charleston (Weak arm)

Center................T. Stearnes......W. Mays

Right..................C. Torrente.......H. Aaron

RHP....................B. Rogan...........S. Paige

LHP....................B. Foster...........N. Winters

Utility.................M. Dihigo............L. Salazar

Pinch hit'r............C. Smith............M. Ramerez

Pinch run'r............C.P. Bell...........R. Henderson

I would rank most of your "B Team" ahead of the A team -- perhaps because I know only about their MLB performance. Hard to imagine any Negro Leagues player I would put ahead of: Frank Thomas; Joe Morgan; Willie Mays; or Hank Aaron.